"If it's provable we can kill it."
Or, sex is fun. And holy.
Published on September 29, 2007 By EmperorofIceCream In Religion
There is no such thing as original sin. There is no such thing as 'sin' at all.

Original sin as sexual sin began life with the writings of Saint Augustine of Hippo, one of the most influential Christian writers and thinkers in the history of the Church. Augustine was not always a Christian. He was a convert from Manicheanism, and before his fascination with Dualism took hold he had been, by his own confession, a drunkard and a general debauchee, possessed by a rabid appetite for sex.

What he so eagerly enjoyed in his youth he was to deny to others in his later life, being tormented by guilt - or, as he put it, having repented of his 'sin'. Augustine is the principal originator of the doctrine of Original Sin as a sexually transmitted disease of the Spirit, a doctrine to be found in his greatest work 'The City of God'.

The Christians will tell you that sin is as much a physical as a spiritual reality. But if the source of sin is in the Spirit it can have no effect on the body; and if it originates in the body it can have no effect upon the Spirit, because the two are totally different in nature. Spirit is immortal and perfect; material reality, including the body, is fallible, subject to decay, and transitory. Original sin, as an idea, is equivalent to the statement "That apple is diseased, so these elephants will get sick." Not merely nonsense - but nonsense on stilts and turning cartwheels.

However, the fact that Original Sin is nonsense in itself hasn't had any adverse effect on its popularity as a staple of Christian doctrine and belief. It's also proved remarkably effective as a tool for controlling the behaviour of the believer. Once granted as a basic premise of faith, it's a perfectly serviceable argument to use in order to explain that sense of dissatisfaction and unhappines, that vague sense of malaise and discomfort we all feel, simply as a consequence of being born human in a human world. We all feel that things aren't right. That there's something wrong, somewhere. This faint sense of existential angst was the premise of Neo's search for the Matrix, of Faust's desire for 'unholy' knowledge, of the the alchemical search for the Philosopher's Stone (which had nothing to do with turning physical lead into physical gold, and everything to do with the transmutation of the human condition).

In order to exploit it you have to be able to explain it. And once you have, you have the ground for the Doctrine of Salvation and Damnation, for the hope of Heaven and the fear of Hell, and for all the opportunities for the exercise of power that come from the authentic belief that you (the family priest, the Church) control the eternal destiny of the believer. And the more things there are that constitute grounds for damnation, then the more opportunities there are for the exercise of that power.

Just as the canon of books that constitute the Bible did not fall ready-made made from Heaven but was constructed by men (primarily at the Council of Nicaea) so the idea of sin was constructed over time. Sexual sin in particular was constucted against the mores and sexual practices of the ancient Middle East, which were used by the early Fathers of the Church as standards to define what Christianity was not. It's always easier to say what a thing isn't than what it is. Augustine, womanizing hypocrite and drunkard that he was, took his own life and used his new-found standard of sin (everything he had done previously) and used it to define a new standard of Godliness and righteousness (everything he had not done previously - particularly in relation to sex). But so great was the spiritual paranoia induced by the history of his personal sexual adventures, as well as by his former devotion to heathen religious practices, that he had to find a ground for the 'corruption' of human nature (all of humanity had to be corrupt, because otherwise Augustine would have had to face an angry God alone) - so that this corruption had to be universal in nature - as well as a means of ensuring that every human being had by necessity to participate in that corruption.

The only possible contender is sex. And birth the perfect means of transmission. We're all created as the consequence of a sexual act, and everyone reading this was born of a woman. And because sex and birth come together in the bodies of women, women have always been condemned by both Augustine and the Church as the carriers of sin. Women, said Augustine, were the Devil's gateway.

If you look carefully into what's known of religio-sexual practice in the ancient Middle East (which included Temple prostitutes of both sexes as well as a whole host of sexual acts performed both openly and privately that most Americans regard with sickly prurience to this day) and then compare those practices to the sexual mores of contemporary American Christianity, you'll find every one of these formerly holy acts to be subject to condemnation.

Sin, and sexual sin in particular, were born out of two complimentary impulses: fear, and the desire to control others. It's no more a sin for two adult males to engage in sex than it is for two adult females, or for an adult man and an adult woman. So far is it from being 'sinful', that these types of acts have been practiced as holy rituals across human cultures and throughout human history.

Sin, far from being an act or acts subject to Divine punishment, is in fact an act or acts which are subject to the punishment of men, at the behest of those in Authority, using God as their justification and accomplice.

None of which is to say that there is no such thing as wrong-doing. From our days in the schoolyard, all of us know that some things are simply wrong. Ask any child, and he or she will tell you that snitching is wrong. They can't tell you why it's wrong, but they know that it is. They know that breaking a promise is wrong; they know that maliciously harming another is wrong. In other words, they know that it's wrong to break the bonds of personal trust and communal fidelity. Being children they can't put the issue in such terms, but they understand the principle - as do we all.

They know this because each of us has a conscience that doesn't depend for its integrity and meaning on religious revelation. Such principles form 'the Rules', with which every child is intimately familiar without any need for instruction by an adult, a priest, or any other intermediary. Conscience is formed in part by the mores of the community, and in part by the practice and example of parents. And any man could live at peace with himself and his neighbours if he simply followed the dictates of his own conscience.

Sin, however, is something distinct from this generalized sense of wrong-doing that we all share. Sin is wrong-doing flavored with religion. In order to say what I actually mean, I'm now going to have to introduce a couple of technical philosophical terms. The first of these is 'ontology'. Ontology is that branch of philosophy that tries to determine what makes a thing the thing that it is. What constitutes the 'horsiness' of a horse? What constitutes the 'grassiness' of a blade of grass? What constitutes the manliness of a man, or the womanliness of a woman, or the humanity of a human being? What are the first principles of being a particular thing that makes that thing the thing that it is?

And the second of these terms is 'teleology'. If ontology looks at first principles in relation to things, teleology looks at the processes by which those first principles operate. By what process does the 'horsiness' of a horse lead to the full expression of that principle in the adult horse? What processes are at work in the development of the child into the adult man or woman? But teleology and ontology are not random, as evolution is. A teleological view of the horse does not permit the idea that the horse as we know it today was ever any other type of creature than a horse. Early horses may have been less perfect horses than those of today - but they were never anything other than horses.

As Thomas Aquinas showed in his great work the Summa these ideas, first developed by the ancient Greeks, are not incompatible with the Christian doctrine of the soul as the animating force that gives life to matter, to flesh. Teleology, which is developmental in nature, shows that there is a principle at work in the flesh that leads to greater and greater sophistication and refinement. Ontology shows that this principle of development is not a part of the flesh itself but derives from something greater than and independent of the flesh - which in the Christian mythology is the soul.

What Augustine did was to argue that, through the Fall, both the soul and the body had become sick with the sickness of pride, with a delusion of self-sufficiency, and that this sickness, contaminating soul and body alike, was transmitted through the mechanism of sex. Why sex? Remember, Augustine had been a pagan, had made use of Temple prostitutes, had participated in rituals in which sex becomes the vehicle of communion with the Gods, is a sacrament in itself.

Whether he knew it or not, sex retained for Augustine a profound spiritual component - but a component through which 'false' gods, 'demons', now made themselves manifest. Sex, obviously, was the primordial means by which the nature of God (the imago dei) was imprinted upon the mind and body of the human being. And sex, therefore, was essentially sinful. And not merely sinful but the worst of all possible sins because the most perilous. As he was all too well aware, being himself a sexual sinner of (in his own mind) the worst sort, sex lead straight to Hell. And sex of the kind practiced in the Temples with which he was familiar, homosexual sex, promiscuous sex, ritual sex, was the worst of the worst of all possible sins.

Which is why Christians are so terrified of, fascinated by, and repulsed by, unregulated sex - especially unregulated sex that doesn't conform to what they consider to be 'natural'. Why other behaviours which, according to the school-yard code of 'the Rules' are far more damaging to the integrity of the individual and the cohesion of the community, go unregarded and unremarked.

It's wrong to tolerate poverty when you have more than you need. It's wrong to tolerate unfairness, prejudice, and greed. It's wrong to bear false witness. It's wrong to allow the weak to be subject to the arbitrary tyrrany of the strong.

But those things are not sins. They're just wrong.

The notion that there are sins for which we will be punished after death is at once hysterically funny (how much attention do you pay to the social interaction of the ant colony in your yard?) and an instrument of social, personal, and political oppression that has served the powerful well for two thousand years.

There is no such thing as sin. 'Sin' is the construction of those who wish to determine the course of your life so that it, your life, serves their interests and not yours. There is, however, wrong-doing. The sooner you realize the difference the less you will fear death, and the more free you will be.


The gods are dead (may they live forever) and only we remain. And the sooner we know it the happier we will be.

Comments (Page 4)
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on Oct 08, 2007
San Chonino Posts:
There is no such thing as Original Sin.


Where is it that we the creation have a 'right' to be born in the state of grace and of supernatural dignities and immunities as Adam was?

Grace means gratuious. Can the son of a poor man justly complain that he should have been born of a rich man?
Our first parents fell from a state of supernatural wealth..and as a result we were born in a state of spiritual bankruptcy. We can't deny this or even say it's unjust. We've not lost what was due us.

To me, denying it is more of a mystery than Original Sin itself...but that's me..by faith and reason I accept it. How can we understand the conditions of the human race without admitting original Sin?

Reason points always in the direction of an original and inherited moral catastrophe. Nature does not know paradox, yet we have the human paradox. We see inherent in man egotism, pride, covetnousness, and iniquity. In honesty, we can't deny sin in ourself. Man has fallen from his true place and can't recover it. What is good in him is from his Creator and what is bad is the unhappy effect of his fall.

on Oct 08, 2007
EOIC POSTS:
According to my view of things, men are neither damned nor sinners, because there is no such thing as 'sin'.


My reply # 13 gives my view as far sin is concerned.

sin is a breaking of the law of God on purpose. St.Thomas Aquinas describes sin in Latin, aversio a Deo ---a turning away from God.


EOIC POSTS:
According to my view of things, men are neither damned nor sinners,because there is no such thing as 'sin'. There is wrong doing, as I pointed out. But that wrong doing is defined by the community and the conscience, not by divine will.


I think the Lord God was quite adamant about His Divine will that obey the Ten Commandments which are written on our heart. They weren't Ten Suggestions.
on Oct 08, 2007
I have never, even remotely, in anything I have written, indicated that I think God to be disinterested in Its creation. What I have said is that, to my mind, this interest is entirely impersonal.


EOIC, is it impersonal that He cares so very much for us that He humbled Himself and became true Man?
or that He knows every hair on our head, or that we are wonderously made, or that He knew us when He was creating the world and all that's in it? It's stuff like this that I find that our Father in Heaven is so loving...He answers our prayers...

It is not possible for me, or you, or anyone else, to have a 'personal relationship' with God -


Quite honestly, I don't really understand this Protestant concept of faith through a "personal relationship" with Christ..

on Oct 08, 2007
I really ough to attempt a rigorous Cosmogony, putting my own faith into the context of my relationship to Christianity - which is complex.

Because much of the 'debate' with lula and others would disappear if I made it plain that I am no longer in agreement with Christianity, and why. Lula says 'the ten commandments are written on the heart'. I say we all have a conscience. That's saying the same thing - only we differ as to the source of conscience, and its consequences.

Sex has to do with the physical natural, mortal body while OS has to do with the spiritual soul, specifically, the loss of supernatural grace in the spiritual immortal soul.
If Adam hadn't committed Original Sin, then all his posterity would have been born (through sexual relations) immortal never experiencing pain, disease, suffering or death.


As I said in the original article - if 'sin' occurs in the body it can have no effect on the soul. If it occurs in the soul it can have no effect on the body, because the two things are fundamentally different. Augustine's point is that a spiritual condition is inherited by (transmitted to) humanity through a physical act. How can one thing, in its essence supremely different, transmit to another thing, absolutely different from the first, a condition which is of the nature of the first thing and absolutely not of the second?

It can't. Original Sin as a sexually transmitted disease of the spirit is nonsense - no matter what the Bible is interpreted as saying on the point. The 'sinful nature' of man is a consequence of the Fall only if the connection between spiritual contagion and physical transmission is accepted. I don't accept it. Just as I no longer accept 'Jesus Christ' as anything other than the manifestation of the will of millions of Christians over time.

Jesus the god-form exists. Jesus Christ the Saviour of the World does not. The god-form Allah also exists, deriving that existence from the faith of millions of Muslims. All the gods exist, though all the gods be dead (may they live forever). And those who prove true to them will receive the rewards they have been promised.

But that doesn't stop all of you being believing fools, nor the rewards you will receive from being anything but the deceptions of your own desires.

Enjoy, and I'll see all of you in hell.
on Oct 09, 2007
LULA POSTS:
only people hate...this though, only after Adam's Original Sin.


Sad, isn't it? It wouldn't be this way if we listened to Almighty God who told us to love one another and bear one another's burdens.


JamesSerral POsts:
It is nice to think of a one world religion and everyone abiding by the laws set forth by it, imagining everyone living peacefully, helping one another, and not have pointless wars, but that will never happen... and frankly, I wouldn't want it to be that way.


JamesFerral,

It seems to me that you don't have to concern yourself about having Christianity with it's living peacefully and helping one another laws as the world religion.

For some time now, the United Nations and the European Union have been busily developing their "one world religion"....it's called secular and atheistic humanism.


on Oct 10, 2007
Our first parents fell from a state of supernatural wealth..and as a result we were born in a state of spiritual bankruptcy. We can't deny this or even say it's unjust. We've not lost what was due us.


Lula. You forgetting an important factor here. Didn't God forgive Adam for his mistake before He ordered him and Eve to earth? Our Original-Parents' sin was theirs and theirs alone. and it was forgiven. Their only punishment was to descend to Earth and work to sustain themselves. From that point on, the slate is clean and everyone's action here on earth is the only criteria for judgment in this life And in the Hereafter.

If our parents now are poor or corrupt or sinners, does that mean we are condemned to be like them? i dont think you mean that. no one bears the cross of others Lula.

The only thing we suffer due to our Original-Parents mistake is having to work in this life as they did after the Fall. No sin comes to us unless we do it to ourselves here on Earth.
on Oct 10, 2007
But God as artist has no personal care for any aspect of the creation in particular, just as the human artist has no particular care for any individual brush-stroke. It is not possible for me, or you, or anyone else, to have a 'personal relationship' with God - because God has not the least interest in having a personal relationship with me, or you, or anyone else.


I dont think you are thinking this whole analogy thoroughly. The human artist certainly cares very much about each and every individual brush-stroke. Does he put those strokes haphazardly? doesnt he care about each stroke's shape, color and location? now imagine that this human artist gave those strokes the ability to do what they want. would he allow them to change location, shape, or color without his permission?

Rev Emp ..... please ask any artist. I will take your word for it. but please ask any artist you can contact and see what he/she will say.

I guarantee you that they will not allow those strokes to just do whatever they please.

My goodness rev Emp ..... few years ago that artist who produced a painting of Jesus using certain material that was objectionable to many Christians and non-Christians refused to change or remove anything from his original painting. And you saying they dont care. ... yes sir they do and fanatically so too.

God has no less interest than those human artists for sure. HE cares even more than them because He actually Created His work not just made it from available materials.

My be the personal relationship between us and God is not obvious, .... but it is there for whoever is interested to look for it. Of course if you are not interested and you dont look, there is no way that you can recognize it. But logically there is no way that we can say it could not and does not exist.
on Oct 10, 2007
if 'sin' occurs in the body it can have no effect on the soul. If it occurs in the soul it can have no effect on the body, because the two things are fundamentally different


a spiritual condition is inherited by (transmitted to) humanity through a physical act. How can one thing, in its essence supremely different, transmit to another thing, absolutely different from the first, a condition which is of the nature of the first thing and absolutely not of the second?


Please read your statements again.

let's forget about Augustine for a minute.

The first statement is not necessarily correct. Just because two things are fundamentally different does't mean they can't affect each other. You cant have two things that are more fundamentally different than Gravity and a Beam of light. Still, General Relativity PROVED that the Beam IS certainly affected by Gravity. These two are so different that we cant get them in one theory yet.... if ever.

Your second statement ignores the fact that "Humanity" has a spititual component too. The fact that the means of transimission is purely physical doesnt make it impossible for it to "transimit" a spiritual component from the source to the recipient since both have a spiritual component. Think about this: Thoughts are fundamentally different from words but two speakers transmit thoughts to each other through words, dont they?

That doesnt mean i agree with what Augustine say. I dont believe that we humans bare any Sin because of Adam's sin. Once he was sent to Earth, the slate was clean. Adam's actions and ours, on earth, are a starting point for Adam, Eve, and the rest of us. from that point on, our own actions are the criteria for judgment. Still, that action is subject to God's rules. That is where Sin comes in.

on Oct 10, 2007
all the gods be dead


Enjoy, and I'll see all of you in hell.


  if all of them are dead, then there is no such thing as hell. so where do we meet?

I thought you said you believed in the existence of God. Regardless of who or what He is, if so, dont be soooo pessimistic. No matter how bad the actions are, they will always be a chance for ALL to avoid that place as long as they believe in His existence.
on Oct 10, 2007
Lula posts:
Our first parents fell from a state of supernatural wealth..and as a result we were born in a state of spiritual bankruptcy. We can't deny this or even say it's unjust. We've not lost what was due us.


Lula. You forgetting an important factor here. Didn't God forgive Adam for his mistake before He ordered him and Eve to earth?


Hello ThinkALoud,

Yes is the short answer to your question.

What do you mean by saying "before God ordered Adam and Eve to earth?" Where do you think Adam and Eve were if not on earth?

Genesis 2 tells us that God made Adam from the earth and gives the location of the Garden of Paradise according to the river with four heads which sprung from the fountains of Paradise. The rivers are the Ganges, Nile, Tigris, and Euphrates.
on Oct 10, 2007
Lula posts:
Our first parents fell from a state of supernatural wealth..and as a result we were born in a state of spiritual bankruptcy. We can't deny this or even say it's unjust. We've not lost what was due us.


ThinkAloud posts:
......Our Original-Parents' sin was theirs and theirs alone. and it was forgiven. Their only punishment was to descend to Earth and work to sustain themselves. From that point on, the slate is clean and everyone's action here on earth is the only criteria for judgment in this life And in the Hereafter.


Yes, Original Sin was theirs alone...they were the ones who deceived by Satan yet by their own free will actually committed the sin of proud revolt and of disobedience against God and His command.

Their Original Sin was grevious for the prohibition was the only positive law which God had given them. It's observance depended upon their own happiness and that of their descendents for ALmighty God had threatened them with death if they disobeyed Him.

The sin of our first parents injured not only themselves, but their prosperity. Their supernatural gifts were given to them not for themselves alone, but for all those who were to come after them. If Adam and Eve had preserved these free gifts their children would have inherited them and would have come into the world in the state of supernatural grace.

But they sinned and the consequneces of their sin were/are very grave...being no longer in the state of grace, their fallen sinful nature has passed down to their children so that all mankind are born into a state of sin.

The punishment of Adam and Eve reveals to us the infinite justice of God. Their sin is the sin of the whole human race and the evil consequences of their sin is passed down to all mankind. We are by birth "children of wrath". Eph. 2:3.

Sin is the greatest of all evils for all the other evils came into the world by sin. Adam and Eve having sinned through pride, were humbled by the degrading sentence: "Dust thou art, and into dust thou shalt return."

But before Almighty God drove them out of Paradise and into the misery of the world, He promised them a Redeemer. they had condemned themselves by their sin and this thought would have driven them to utter despair had not God in His infinite mercy awakened in their hearts the hope of a coming Savior.

The curse pronounced on satan contained a consolation for fallen man. Genesis 3:15, I will put enmities between thee and the woman,..." Here, God told Adam and Eve that sin, which comes of the world of the flesh and by the devil, would be overcome some day and that the gates of the Heaven would be opened to them.

From this moment, Adam and Eve were not eternally lost and they were not sent straight to Hell as did the fallen angels. They were not hardened in sin, but confessed their guilt and repented of it. They received pardon on account of their belief in the future Savior. on account of their repentence, and long life (Adam lived 930 years I think)of expiation, were delivered from that place Catholics call Limbo others call Hades, by our Lord and taken by Him to Heaven. In the Book of Wisdom 10:2, it is expressly said that Divine Wisdom drew him (Adam) out of sin."
on Oct 10, 2007
If Adam and Eve had preserved these free gifts their children would have inherited them and would have come into the world in the state of supernatural grace.


Making Jesus a back-up plan, a bad plan B.

Sorry, I don't buy it, regardless of what your catechism may say.

Jesus was the plan from the beginning. God knew that Man would fall. In fact, God intended that Man fall. A sick irony? Maybe. But that's how it is.

Jesus ain't nobody's plan B.
on Oct 10, 2007
Making Jesus a back-up plan, a bad plan B.


I've never said or even implied that Christ was a back up plan? This is entirely your thinking...you own this idea.

on Oct 10, 2007
You're the one who said that Adam and Eve were never supposed to fall or leave the garden, which implies that Jesus would not have been necessary without the fall.

You planted that idea of your doctrine in my head. How exactly were they supposed to stay in the garden then? And why would the world have needed a savior without a fall?

Your logic makes it seem that Christ is plan B.
on Oct 10, 2007
I see what you're saying, Sancho. And I'm inclined to agree with you.
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