"If it's provable we can kill it."
Or, sex is fun. And holy.
Published on September 29, 2007 By EmperorofIceCream In Religion
There is no such thing as original sin. There is no such thing as 'sin' at all.

Original sin as sexual sin began life with the writings of Saint Augustine of Hippo, one of the most influential Christian writers and thinkers in the history of the Church. Augustine was not always a Christian. He was a convert from Manicheanism, and before his fascination with Dualism took hold he had been, by his own confession, a drunkard and a general debauchee, possessed by a rabid appetite for sex.

What he so eagerly enjoyed in his youth he was to deny to others in his later life, being tormented by guilt - or, as he put it, having repented of his 'sin'. Augustine is the principal originator of the doctrine of Original Sin as a sexually transmitted disease of the Spirit, a doctrine to be found in his greatest work 'The City of God'.

The Christians will tell you that sin is as much a physical as a spiritual reality. But if the source of sin is in the Spirit it can have no effect on the body; and if it originates in the body it can have no effect upon the Spirit, because the two are totally different in nature. Spirit is immortal and perfect; material reality, including the body, is fallible, subject to decay, and transitory. Original sin, as an idea, is equivalent to the statement "That apple is diseased, so these elephants will get sick." Not merely nonsense - but nonsense on stilts and turning cartwheels.

However, the fact that Original Sin is nonsense in itself hasn't had any adverse effect on its popularity as a staple of Christian doctrine and belief. It's also proved remarkably effective as a tool for controlling the behaviour of the believer. Once granted as a basic premise of faith, it's a perfectly serviceable argument to use in order to explain that sense of dissatisfaction and unhappines, that vague sense of malaise and discomfort we all feel, simply as a consequence of being born human in a human world. We all feel that things aren't right. That there's something wrong, somewhere. This faint sense of existential angst was the premise of Neo's search for the Matrix, of Faust's desire for 'unholy' knowledge, of the the alchemical search for the Philosopher's Stone (which had nothing to do with turning physical lead into physical gold, and everything to do with the transmutation of the human condition).

In order to exploit it you have to be able to explain it. And once you have, you have the ground for the Doctrine of Salvation and Damnation, for the hope of Heaven and the fear of Hell, and for all the opportunities for the exercise of power that come from the authentic belief that you (the family priest, the Church) control the eternal destiny of the believer. And the more things there are that constitute grounds for damnation, then the more opportunities there are for the exercise of that power.

Just as the canon of books that constitute the Bible did not fall ready-made made from Heaven but was constructed by men (primarily at the Council of Nicaea) so the idea of sin was constructed over time. Sexual sin in particular was constucted against the mores and sexual practices of the ancient Middle East, which were used by the early Fathers of the Church as standards to define what Christianity was not. It's always easier to say what a thing isn't than what it is. Augustine, womanizing hypocrite and drunkard that he was, took his own life and used his new-found standard of sin (everything he had done previously) and used it to define a new standard of Godliness and righteousness (everything he had not done previously - particularly in relation to sex). But so great was the spiritual paranoia induced by the history of his personal sexual adventures, as well as by his former devotion to heathen religious practices, that he had to find a ground for the 'corruption' of human nature (all of humanity had to be corrupt, because otherwise Augustine would have had to face an angry God alone) - so that this corruption had to be universal in nature - as well as a means of ensuring that every human being had by necessity to participate in that corruption.

The only possible contender is sex. And birth the perfect means of transmission. We're all created as the consequence of a sexual act, and everyone reading this was born of a woman. And because sex and birth come together in the bodies of women, women have always been condemned by both Augustine and the Church as the carriers of sin. Women, said Augustine, were the Devil's gateway.

If you look carefully into what's known of religio-sexual practice in the ancient Middle East (which included Temple prostitutes of both sexes as well as a whole host of sexual acts performed both openly and privately that most Americans regard with sickly prurience to this day) and then compare those practices to the sexual mores of contemporary American Christianity, you'll find every one of these formerly holy acts to be subject to condemnation.

Sin, and sexual sin in particular, were born out of two complimentary impulses: fear, and the desire to control others. It's no more a sin for two adult males to engage in sex than it is for two adult females, or for an adult man and an adult woman. So far is it from being 'sinful', that these types of acts have been practiced as holy rituals across human cultures and throughout human history.

Sin, far from being an act or acts subject to Divine punishment, is in fact an act or acts which are subject to the punishment of men, at the behest of those in Authority, using God as their justification and accomplice.

None of which is to say that there is no such thing as wrong-doing. From our days in the schoolyard, all of us know that some things are simply wrong. Ask any child, and he or she will tell you that snitching is wrong. They can't tell you why it's wrong, but they know that it is. They know that breaking a promise is wrong; they know that maliciously harming another is wrong. In other words, they know that it's wrong to break the bonds of personal trust and communal fidelity. Being children they can't put the issue in such terms, but they understand the principle - as do we all.

They know this because each of us has a conscience that doesn't depend for its integrity and meaning on religious revelation. Such principles form 'the Rules', with which every child is intimately familiar without any need for instruction by an adult, a priest, or any other intermediary. Conscience is formed in part by the mores of the community, and in part by the practice and example of parents. And any man could live at peace with himself and his neighbours if he simply followed the dictates of his own conscience.

Sin, however, is something distinct from this generalized sense of wrong-doing that we all share. Sin is wrong-doing flavored with religion. In order to say what I actually mean, I'm now going to have to introduce a couple of technical philosophical terms. The first of these is 'ontology'. Ontology is that branch of philosophy that tries to determine what makes a thing the thing that it is. What constitutes the 'horsiness' of a horse? What constitutes the 'grassiness' of a blade of grass? What constitutes the manliness of a man, or the womanliness of a woman, or the humanity of a human being? What are the first principles of being a particular thing that makes that thing the thing that it is?

And the second of these terms is 'teleology'. If ontology looks at first principles in relation to things, teleology looks at the processes by which those first principles operate. By what process does the 'horsiness' of a horse lead to the full expression of that principle in the adult horse? What processes are at work in the development of the child into the adult man or woman? But teleology and ontology are not random, as evolution is. A teleological view of the horse does not permit the idea that the horse as we know it today was ever any other type of creature than a horse. Early horses may have been less perfect horses than those of today - but they were never anything other than horses.

As Thomas Aquinas showed in his great work the Summa these ideas, first developed by the ancient Greeks, are not incompatible with the Christian doctrine of the soul as the animating force that gives life to matter, to flesh. Teleology, which is developmental in nature, shows that there is a principle at work in the flesh that leads to greater and greater sophistication and refinement. Ontology shows that this principle of development is not a part of the flesh itself but derives from something greater than and independent of the flesh - which in the Christian mythology is the soul.

What Augustine did was to argue that, through the Fall, both the soul and the body had become sick with the sickness of pride, with a delusion of self-sufficiency, and that this sickness, contaminating soul and body alike, was transmitted through the mechanism of sex. Why sex? Remember, Augustine had been a pagan, had made use of Temple prostitutes, had participated in rituals in which sex becomes the vehicle of communion with the Gods, is a sacrament in itself.

Whether he knew it or not, sex retained for Augustine a profound spiritual component - but a component through which 'false' gods, 'demons', now made themselves manifest. Sex, obviously, was the primordial means by which the nature of God (the imago dei) was imprinted upon the mind and body of the human being. And sex, therefore, was essentially sinful. And not merely sinful but the worst of all possible sins because the most perilous. As he was all too well aware, being himself a sexual sinner of (in his own mind) the worst sort, sex lead straight to Hell. And sex of the kind practiced in the Temples with which he was familiar, homosexual sex, promiscuous sex, ritual sex, was the worst of the worst of all possible sins.

Which is why Christians are so terrified of, fascinated by, and repulsed by, unregulated sex - especially unregulated sex that doesn't conform to what they consider to be 'natural'. Why other behaviours which, according to the school-yard code of 'the Rules' are far more damaging to the integrity of the individual and the cohesion of the community, go unregarded and unremarked.

It's wrong to tolerate poverty when you have more than you need. It's wrong to tolerate unfairness, prejudice, and greed. It's wrong to bear false witness. It's wrong to allow the weak to be subject to the arbitrary tyrrany of the strong.

But those things are not sins. They're just wrong.

The notion that there are sins for which we will be punished after death is at once hysterically funny (how much attention do you pay to the social interaction of the ant colony in your yard?) and an instrument of social, personal, and political oppression that has served the powerful well for two thousand years.

There is no such thing as sin. 'Sin' is the construction of those who wish to determine the course of your life so that it, your life, serves their interests and not yours. There is, however, wrong-doing. The sooner you realize the difference the less you will fear death, and the more free you will be.


The gods are dead (may they live forever) and only we remain. And the sooner we know it the happier we will be.

Comments (Page 5)
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on Oct 10, 2007
You're the one who said that Adam and Eve were never supposed to fall or leave the garden, which implies that Jesus would not have been necessary without the fall.


My goodness, Sancho, have you read Genesis 1-3? God created Adam and Eve nearly perfect in every way and set them up in a georgeous Paradise...from all accounts to live as close to being in Heaven as it gets. Everything was "good" and "very good". He didn't set them up for failure ie. hoping they would sin against Him for God can neither deceive or be deceived.

Follow the logical dots....We can only conclude that had Adam and Eve remained obedient, then they would have lived forever in Paradise and from them, we as their posterity all would have enjoyed the same gifts. It was a perfect world, it was a perfect life, no evil of sin, no pain, no suffering, no death, no tears, no work, etc.....thus there would have been no need for our Merciful Almighty God to humble Himself and become true-man and Savior of all mankind.





on Oct 10, 2007
To: ThinkAloud

I appreciate having a Muslim engage in this debate. It's refreshing to hear something other than the same arguments, constantly reiterated. Your arguments are, in my opinion, as false as those of the Christians. But they are pleasingly different. Thank you for your continued contribution.

I'm glad you have pointed out that in Islam there is no original sin, nor any original guilt attached to the human race as a whole. As you properly point out, no one dies but for his own sin.

You ask me why, if I believe all the gods be dead - as I most sincerely do - I would wish that they should live forever. All gods but God are the creation of men, and are sustained in existence by the faith of men. Therefore all the gods that are acknowledged by men have life. Yet we live in a post-religious age, at least in the West, in which the very idea of 'god' has become ridiculous and faith a spiritual aberration. The preconditions for the existence of the gods have vanished; therefore all the gods are dead. But the predisposition in man to worship has not, and that impulse to worship will recast the Divine in a new image, as it always has done. So, even if all the gods be dead, yet will they live forever.

Which has nothing at all to do with the existence of the one true Lord of the Universe that has neither Name, nor Sex, nor Gender, nor any other particular and Finite thing associated with it but is in every way Transcendent.

Whatever name you give It is a lie, because any such name can never be more than a partial apprehension of the reality of It. To give It a name is to depict It. And as every good Muslim knows, the attempt to depict God is an abomination.
on Oct 10, 2007
It was a perfect world, it was a perfect life, no evil of sin, no pain, no suffering, no death, no tears, no work, etc.....thus there would have been no need for our Merciful Almighty God to humble Himself and become true-man and Savior of all mankind.


You said it, not me. You think Jesus would not have been necessary.

I'm sure he appreciates this sentiment.

Thankfully, modern-day scripture has revealed the necessity of the Fall, and how God intended it to happen the whole time, making the Lord Plan A, right where he belongs.
on Oct 10, 2007
What do you mean by saying "before God ordered Adam and Eve to earth?" Where do you think Adam and Eve were if not on earth?

Genesis 2 tells us that God made Adam from the earth and gives the location of the Garden of Paradise according to the river with four heads which sprung from the fountains of Paradise. The rivers are the Ganges, Nile, Tigris, and Euphrates.


Before i give you what i think, let me say this: You answered your own question. They were in the Garden of Paradise.

There are lots of opinions about where that is. If we just go by Gen.2 as you quoted, i think you got it backward. They were in paradise, that is where those four rivers spring. They continue here on earth as we see them. How is that possible? Dont ask me, when we All meet HIM we can ask. . The majority of scholars say it is the way i described, not the way you understand it,i.e. the paradise is part of Earth. Paradise with the source of those river is up there somewhere in another universe. That is the way I understand it. Adam and Eve, and us as a consequence, were ordered to descend from paradise to Earth along with Satan and continue the battle here.
on Oct 10, 2007
And as every good Muslim knows, the attempt to depict God is an abomination


First, Thanks for your nice words.

And it is absolutely true that We, Humans, are not capable of depicting God in any way,shape or form. I think all discussions regarding that point are useless and leads to lots of confusion. May be now you know why Muslims get upset when someone tries to depict God in any way. even prophets, we dont know how they looked so why speculate.

However, your statement that God is just an "idea" are not supported by the historical facts of this world nor is it supported by logic. We, humans, are not just an "idea", we physically exist along with the universe we see. That cannot come out of just an "Idea". WE and our universe have a REAL existing Creator.

Historically, there is no other Idea that we know of that persists like the idea of a True God. This cant happen if it was just an idea. This idea of True God in almost identical details cant spread like it did if it was just an imaginary one. yes, all other gods are dead like you said, not HIM. He is there and Existing and actually maintains us every nanosecond of our existence.

Dont let the confusion of others regarding His nature decieve you. It is an exercise in futility to try to figure out what and how He is. For God's sake, we cant even figure out what we are ourselves, and we think we can figure out HIM? But if you think deeply and thoroughly you will be convinced that HE is there. If you dont like to follow His orders that is a choice He gave All of us. However, as long as you acknowledge His existence, He will always remain there for anyone to say sorry "Big Guy" i will try to follow your orders. That is all it takes. Trust Him and His existence and you will be ok.
on Oct 11, 2007
For some time now, the United Nations and the European Union have been busily developing their "one world religion"....it's called secular and atheistic humanism.


humanism isn't a religion of any type.

it is, however, the very basis of our government. what could be more humanist than government of people, by people for people? what could be more secular than rejecting completely the notion of rule by divine authority?

on Oct 11, 2007
I don't have anything useful to add to the discussion. I just wanted to know if you had picked up my burqa yet.
on Oct 11, 2007
the Fall, and how God intended it to happen the whole time,


If God intended the fall to happen, then that would make Him part or responsible for their sin...and we know that can't be true.

Adam and Eve and all mankind's will is free, the perfection of liberty that we might live according to self-chosen virtue which constitutes man's real dignity.

God forbade any evil choice, but would not compel man to be good. Despite his ability to do well, and despite God's warning, man disobeyed God and God wasn't responsible for that sin, which Adam and Eve need not have committed.



on Oct 11, 2007
humanism isn't a religion of any type.


In 1965, the Supreme Court recognized Secular Humanism as a religion in its the United States vs. Seeger decision.

Secular humanism is a religion without God. Even the Humanist Manifestos speak of religious Humanism. Secular humanism is a philosophical way of life, a belief system that Humanists live by.



on Oct 11, 2007
I just wanted to know if you had picked up my burqa yet.


So you are one of those infidels who would submit to the will of Allah and believe in his messenger Muhammad and the Qur'an.
on Oct 11, 2007
So you are one of those infidels who would submit to the will of Allah and believe in his messenger Muhammad and the Qur'an.


Wow, talk about not getting the joke.
on Oct 11, 2007
Wow, talk about not getting the joke.


No, evidently, I don't get the joke. I'm dunce that way...please explain it to me.
on Oct 11, 2007
You caught me, Lula!! I'm a dirty, stinkin' Muslim!
on Oct 11, 2007
She's implying a very simple correlation between your insistence on Original Sin and the inferiority of women in the Muslim world. As far as I understand her, she's saying they're both ridiculous.


PS Tex, you'd better cover up. You're far too hot to be allowed in public. Men have no restraint, after all . . .
on Oct 11, 2007
if you had picked up my burqa yet


i was all for this til i realized i'd misread it and we weren't being invited to peek up her burqa.
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