"If it's provable we can kill it."
Or, sex is fun. And holy.
Published on September 29, 2007 By EmperorofIceCream In Religion
There is no such thing as original sin. There is no such thing as 'sin' at all.

Original sin as sexual sin began life with the writings of Saint Augustine of Hippo, one of the most influential Christian writers and thinkers in the history of the Church. Augustine was not always a Christian. He was a convert from Manicheanism, and before his fascination with Dualism took hold he had been, by his own confession, a drunkard and a general debauchee, possessed by a rabid appetite for sex.

What he so eagerly enjoyed in his youth he was to deny to others in his later life, being tormented by guilt - or, as he put it, having repented of his 'sin'. Augustine is the principal originator of the doctrine of Original Sin as a sexually transmitted disease of the Spirit, a doctrine to be found in his greatest work 'The City of God'.

The Christians will tell you that sin is as much a physical as a spiritual reality. But if the source of sin is in the Spirit it can have no effect on the body; and if it originates in the body it can have no effect upon the Spirit, because the two are totally different in nature. Spirit is immortal and perfect; material reality, including the body, is fallible, subject to decay, and transitory. Original sin, as an idea, is equivalent to the statement "That apple is diseased, so these elephants will get sick." Not merely nonsense - but nonsense on stilts and turning cartwheels.

However, the fact that Original Sin is nonsense in itself hasn't had any adverse effect on its popularity as a staple of Christian doctrine and belief. It's also proved remarkably effective as a tool for controlling the behaviour of the believer. Once granted as a basic premise of faith, it's a perfectly serviceable argument to use in order to explain that sense of dissatisfaction and unhappines, that vague sense of malaise and discomfort we all feel, simply as a consequence of being born human in a human world. We all feel that things aren't right. That there's something wrong, somewhere. This faint sense of existential angst was the premise of Neo's search for the Matrix, of Faust's desire for 'unholy' knowledge, of the the alchemical search for the Philosopher's Stone (which had nothing to do with turning physical lead into physical gold, and everything to do with the transmutation of the human condition).

In order to exploit it you have to be able to explain it. And once you have, you have the ground for the Doctrine of Salvation and Damnation, for the hope of Heaven and the fear of Hell, and for all the opportunities for the exercise of power that come from the authentic belief that you (the family priest, the Church) control the eternal destiny of the believer. And the more things there are that constitute grounds for damnation, then the more opportunities there are for the exercise of that power.

Just as the canon of books that constitute the Bible did not fall ready-made made from Heaven but was constructed by men (primarily at the Council of Nicaea) so the idea of sin was constructed over time. Sexual sin in particular was constucted against the mores and sexual practices of the ancient Middle East, which were used by the early Fathers of the Church as standards to define what Christianity was not. It's always easier to say what a thing isn't than what it is. Augustine, womanizing hypocrite and drunkard that he was, took his own life and used his new-found standard of sin (everything he had done previously) and used it to define a new standard of Godliness and righteousness (everything he had not done previously - particularly in relation to sex). But so great was the spiritual paranoia induced by the history of his personal sexual adventures, as well as by his former devotion to heathen religious practices, that he had to find a ground for the 'corruption' of human nature (all of humanity had to be corrupt, because otherwise Augustine would have had to face an angry God alone) - so that this corruption had to be universal in nature - as well as a means of ensuring that every human being had by necessity to participate in that corruption.

The only possible contender is sex. And birth the perfect means of transmission. We're all created as the consequence of a sexual act, and everyone reading this was born of a woman. And because sex and birth come together in the bodies of women, women have always been condemned by both Augustine and the Church as the carriers of sin. Women, said Augustine, were the Devil's gateway.

If you look carefully into what's known of religio-sexual practice in the ancient Middle East (which included Temple prostitutes of both sexes as well as a whole host of sexual acts performed both openly and privately that most Americans regard with sickly prurience to this day) and then compare those practices to the sexual mores of contemporary American Christianity, you'll find every one of these formerly holy acts to be subject to condemnation.

Sin, and sexual sin in particular, were born out of two complimentary impulses: fear, and the desire to control others. It's no more a sin for two adult males to engage in sex than it is for two adult females, or for an adult man and an adult woman. So far is it from being 'sinful', that these types of acts have been practiced as holy rituals across human cultures and throughout human history.

Sin, far from being an act or acts subject to Divine punishment, is in fact an act or acts which are subject to the punishment of men, at the behest of those in Authority, using God as their justification and accomplice.

None of which is to say that there is no such thing as wrong-doing. From our days in the schoolyard, all of us know that some things are simply wrong. Ask any child, and he or she will tell you that snitching is wrong. They can't tell you why it's wrong, but they know that it is. They know that breaking a promise is wrong; they know that maliciously harming another is wrong. In other words, they know that it's wrong to break the bonds of personal trust and communal fidelity. Being children they can't put the issue in such terms, but they understand the principle - as do we all.

They know this because each of us has a conscience that doesn't depend for its integrity and meaning on religious revelation. Such principles form 'the Rules', with which every child is intimately familiar without any need for instruction by an adult, a priest, or any other intermediary. Conscience is formed in part by the mores of the community, and in part by the practice and example of parents. And any man could live at peace with himself and his neighbours if he simply followed the dictates of his own conscience.

Sin, however, is something distinct from this generalized sense of wrong-doing that we all share. Sin is wrong-doing flavored with religion. In order to say what I actually mean, I'm now going to have to introduce a couple of technical philosophical terms. The first of these is 'ontology'. Ontology is that branch of philosophy that tries to determine what makes a thing the thing that it is. What constitutes the 'horsiness' of a horse? What constitutes the 'grassiness' of a blade of grass? What constitutes the manliness of a man, or the womanliness of a woman, or the humanity of a human being? What are the first principles of being a particular thing that makes that thing the thing that it is?

And the second of these terms is 'teleology'. If ontology looks at first principles in relation to things, teleology looks at the processes by which those first principles operate. By what process does the 'horsiness' of a horse lead to the full expression of that principle in the adult horse? What processes are at work in the development of the child into the adult man or woman? But teleology and ontology are not random, as evolution is. A teleological view of the horse does not permit the idea that the horse as we know it today was ever any other type of creature than a horse. Early horses may have been less perfect horses than those of today - but they were never anything other than horses.

As Thomas Aquinas showed in his great work the Summa these ideas, first developed by the ancient Greeks, are not incompatible with the Christian doctrine of the soul as the animating force that gives life to matter, to flesh. Teleology, which is developmental in nature, shows that there is a principle at work in the flesh that leads to greater and greater sophistication and refinement. Ontology shows that this principle of development is not a part of the flesh itself but derives from something greater than and independent of the flesh - which in the Christian mythology is the soul.

What Augustine did was to argue that, through the Fall, both the soul and the body had become sick with the sickness of pride, with a delusion of self-sufficiency, and that this sickness, contaminating soul and body alike, was transmitted through the mechanism of sex. Why sex? Remember, Augustine had been a pagan, had made use of Temple prostitutes, had participated in rituals in which sex becomes the vehicle of communion with the Gods, is a sacrament in itself.

Whether he knew it or not, sex retained for Augustine a profound spiritual component - but a component through which 'false' gods, 'demons', now made themselves manifest. Sex, obviously, was the primordial means by which the nature of God (the imago dei) was imprinted upon the mind and body of the human being. And sex, therefore, was essentially sinful. And not merely sinful but the worst of all possible sins because the most perilous. As he was all too well aware, being himself a sexual sinner of (in his own mind) the worst sort, sex lead straight to Hell. And sex of the kind practiced in the Temples with which he was familiar, homosexual sex, promiscuous sex, ritual sex, was the worst of the worst of all possible sins.

Which is why Christians are so terrified of, fascinated by, and repulsed by, unregulated sex - especially unregulated sex that doesn't conform to what they consider to be 'natural'. Why other behaviours which, according to the school-yard code of 'the Rules' are far more damaging to the integrity of the individual and the cohesion of the community, go unregarded and unremarked.

It's wrong to tolerate poverty when you have more than you need. It's wrong to tolerate unfairness, prejudice, and greed. It's wrong to bear false witness. It's wrong to allow the weak to be subject to the arbitrary tyrrany of the strong.

But those things are not sins. They're just wrong.

The notion that there are sins for which we will be punished after death is at once hysterically funny (how much attention do you pay to the social interaction of the ant colony in your yard?) and an instrument of social, personal, and political oppression that has served the powerful well for two thousand years.

There is no such thing as sin. 'Sin' is the construction of those who wish to determine the course of your life so that it, your life, serves their interests and not yours. There is, however, wrong-doing. The sooner you realize the difference the less you will fear death, and the more free you will be.


The gods are dead (may they live forever) and only we remain. And the sooner we know it the happier we will be.

Comments (Page 1)
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on Sep 30, 2007
exactly.

brilliant writing too.
on Sep 30, 2007
It's sure to twist a few knickers around here.


I wonder which of those twisted knickers has the courage to even go to Simon's blog. If I was one of them, I'd be digging a hole to hide in.

'Sin' is the construction of those who wish to determine the course of your life so that it, your life, serves their interests and not yours. There is, however, wrong-doing.


Such as determining the course of another's life so that it serves your interest, not theirs - for instance

Good write, and as usual, anyone would be hard pressed to add to it.
on Sep 30, 2007
"'Sin' is the construction of those who wish to determine the course of your life so that it, your life, serves their interests and not yours."

Absolutely. Sin is the construction of God, who wishes to determine the course of your life so that your life serves God's interests, not yours. Why would I be digging a hole to hide in, again?
on Sep 30, 2007
Sin is the construction of God, who wishes to determine the course of your life so that your life serves God's interests, not yours.


Why would I be digging a hole to hide in, again?

I dunno, J. Why are you?
on Oct 01, 2007
It's wrong to tolerate poverty when you have more than you need. It's wrong to tolerate unfairness, prejudice, and greed. It's wrong to bear false witness. It's wrong to allow the weak to be subject to the arbitrary tyrrany of the strong.

But those things are not sins. They're just wrong


Rev. Emp, may I call you that? 

You starting your church with blazing fireworks here. It is good and raises great issues. I would love to engage you in a serious insult-free and open-minded discussion about these issues. I wonder if you will tolerate that or do like what a dear and great scholar of Islam, who was a family friend (he died sevarl years ago), did with me when i was in my early 20's. Every time I argued with him about something he got upset and started calling me "misguided", "unfaithful" and other choice names.

As a general comment, you are basing your views on what the "religious" people or authorities do or say.That is not really fair to any school of thought. What people do (no matter who they are) is one thing, on what principles they do that (according to them) is another. They may be spinning, misunderstanding, manipulating, ...etc these principles for their own agenda or interests as you pointed out.

A fairer way is to judge the principles themselves, not the followers. you may be a much more adherent to and better believer in those principles than those who use or apply them incorrectly.

I believe if you do that you may reach an entirely different conclusions.


on Oct 01, 2007
Simon has no religious prejudices at all, other than a general intolerance of ignorance. He'll get to you this evening after work.


Ditto X Zillions  , i will be looking forward to hear from him. i will be away tomorrow. so if i dont respond to him right away, you know why. Thanks for your response.

on Oct 02, 2007
Let's begin with Jythier.

Absolutely. Sin is the construction of God, who wishes to determine the course of your life so that your life serves God's interests, not yours. Why would I be digging a hole to hide in, again?


Sin is the construction of God, as a means to determine the believer's life. So, no free will then. Also, no justice - since if a course of action is determined from outside itself it's neither free nor culpable. And what might be God's interests? Since God is omnipotent, omniscient, incapable of suffering loss or harm and just as incapable of need, what interest of God's, exactly, do you think your life serves? What have you given to God lately, that God had an interest in?

No free will. No justice. No omnipotence (in fact, just the opposite, impotence - since your God needs you, for some reason). Tell me again, you incandescently arrogant little twit - just which god is it you believe in?

To paraphrase the title of another of my articles - Jythier, the monkey that thought it could.

I'd offer you a shovel. But you don't seem to need one.
on Oct 02, 2007
To: ThinkAloud

You starting your church with blazing fireworks here. It is good and raises great issues. I would love to engage you in a serious insult-free and open-minded discussion about these issues.


Sweet of you to say, and provided you don't follow the example of Jythier, then I'd be happy to engage you in a dialog that's open and free of insults. But I don't suffer fools gladly, even in the real world, and see no reason to suffer them at all here on JU.

Firstly, I'd like to know what great issues you think the Church of the Negative Christ might raise. i no longer believe in sin, salvation, redemption, or damnation - so for me these are no longer issues at all, let alone 'great ones'. For further information as to what I do, positively, believe you might wish to look at these previous articles of mine: (Link). (Link). (Link). (Link). (Link). (Link). (Link). (Link).

That's a lot of reading I know. But don't worry. I don't expect you to read all, most, or any of them. More power to you if you do.

on Oct 02, 2007
I'd like to know what great issues you think the Church of the Negative Christ might raise


You raised many issues in your post. Whether you consider them "issues" is not the point. may be for you, they are no longer issues. However, you used them to reach certain conclusions and as such i beleive they deserve to be discussed.

The first issue is the "Sin" itself. In your post it seems to me that you reject the possibility of the concept itself saying that there is only right and wrong.

True, there is right and wrong. Sin, on the otherhand has nothing to do with that.

Sin, by definition, is doing something contrary to what God commands people to do. That "something" could, actually, be a good thing in itself but doing it in certain cases is a Sin because God commands that it should not be done in these "certain cases". An example is "Eating Meat". That is not a Sin at all except if you are a Christian and do it while fasting. For Muslims, if you eat Anything while fasting is a Sin. Eating meat or eating in general is a good thing but becomes a Sin at certain times depending on the religion of the eater.

Of course, evil or wrong things are generally a Sin, but even some of those are not considered Sins if there is a "Just" reason for doing them according to what God commands. Like "Executing" a murderer or killing in self-defence for example. That is not a Sin even though killing in itself is not a good thing. It all depends on what God command people to do in different circumstances.

So, if you say that you dont believe that there is such a thing as Sin, does that mean you dont believe in God?

We can later discuss why God makes certain things a Sin. But lets us resolve this issue first. Do you believe in the existence of a God. regardless of what is the nature of this God? Just the concept itself. Do you believe in it?

PS: I read some of the links. I understand that you actually believe in the existence of a God. If this is the case, then on what bases you say there is no Sin?
on Oct 03, 2007
Hello EOIC,

Your thinking as presented here mocks reality and denies truth.

There is no such thing as original sin. There is no such thing as 'sin' at all.


There is no such thing as sin.


What is sin? My dictionary has it that sin is a breaking of the law of God on purpose. St.Thomas Aquinas describes sin in Latin, aversio a Deo ---a turning away from God. What makes this turning away from God sinful is the fact that the one who makes that tragic move is himself responsible for it. It's not something that just happens to him...he makes it happen. He knows what he's doing and he wills what he is doing. He is, then, in the aftermath, guilty.


What constitutes the 'horsiness' of a horse? What constitutes the 'grassiness' of a blade of grass? What constitutes the manliness of a man, or the womanliness of a woman, or the humanity of a human being?


What constitutes denying the sinfulness of sin?

It's the psychologization of denying sin. It's an elaborate mental trick done very much for the benefit of the trickster.

There are many in society who want us to believe that there is something seriously self-diminishing in admitting to the reality of sin and the personal responsibility that accompanies it. The truth is quite the opposite. Authentic self-esteem that follows upon recognizing ourselves to be children of God and heirs to Heaven is always enhanced, never diminished, by living according to the truth.

The psychologization of denying sin is a desparate effort fed by an entirely naturalistic mode of thinking to reduce everything to man's level ignoring the whole supernatural dimension of man's life. It mocks reality.

When a paralytic was brought on a pallet to OUr Lord, the first thing He said to him was, "Thy sins are forgiven thee." +



on Oct 03, 2007
"Sin is the construction of God, as a means to determine the believer's life. So, no free will then. Also, no justice - since if a course of action is determined from outside itself it's neither free nor culpable. And what might be God's interests? Since God is omnipotent, omniscient, incapable of suffering loss or harm and just as incapable of need, what interest of God's, exactly, do you think your life serves?"

The free will is in the choice to follow God - to repent from sin.

God's interest is in reaching more people, to of their own free will, follow Him and repent from sin. That is the interest my life serves.

God is omnipotent, omniscient, and capable of everything, not nothing.
on Oct 04, 2007
To: Jythier

You're an idiot - go revise your reading comprehension skills. When you can grasp the meaning of determine, and are able to do more than repeat what you have already said in slightly different words, I'll consider talking to you. Unless your next comment is worth thinking about I'll simply delete that comment and any subsequent ones you post. I don't suffer fools gladly.

The free will is in the choice to follow God - to repent from sin.


Just as an example. There can be no free will where an outcome of action is already determined. If God determines the believer's life as a believer then the said believer has no choice but to believe. If you had any argument to present concerning 'free will' in the first place you destroyed it with this sentence: "Sin is the construction of God, as a means to determine the believer's life."

In your own words you describe yourself as a will - less automaton, so any virtue you may ascribe to yourself because of your belief is annihilated through God's act of determination, which is neither merited nor earned but ascribed. Which is exactly the error that Calvin fell into and you, like him, have just entirely denied the doctrine of salvation through grace, dethroned Christ, and made of yourself through your own testimony not only a manifold fool but a heretic.

I'll see you in hell, idiot.
on Oct 04, 2007
To: lulapilgrim

Firstly, since I freely confess to no longer being a Christian, to finding its theology nonsensical, its practice to be destructive on a personal level and conducive of the crassest and most simple-minded authoritarianism in political terms, there's very little point to berating me on grounds which I explicitly refuse to recognise.

Your dictionary refers to the tradition of observance formed by the Judaeo-Christian revelations, which I no longer accept as in any but the remotest sense as 'true'. So you are welcome to its definitions - but they don't apply to me. Believe in sin as passionately as you desire and argue fot its existence as cogently as your faith will allow. The fact remains that Original Sin as a spiritual disease transmitted sexually is the creation of one man, Augustine of Hippo, it has no basis in the Genesis account and no basis anywhere else in the Bible save in the bigoted rantings of the Tentmaker - and even he only alludes to it in the most general of ways.

Original Sin was born out of the sexual terror of one man, and his desire not to face an angry God alone. And without Original Sin there is no requirement for Christ - because Christ, so it's said, was a Sinless offering. Why sinless? Because only an unblemished Lamb was sufficient to blot out the intolerable corruption that all men are heir to. If men are not utterly corrupt then they can work out for themslves their relationship to God, without need of any intermediary - divine, human, or some incomprehensible and inexplicable combination of both.

There are many in society who want us to believe that there is something seriously self-diminishing in admitting to the reality of sin and the personal responsibility that accompanies it. The truth is quite the opposite. Authentic self-esteem that follows upon recognizing ourselves to be children of God and heirs to Heaven is always enhanced, never diminished, by living according to the truth.


So go live according to the truth. What are you doing here, except comforting yourself by telling me how wrong I am?
on Oct 04, 2007
To: ThinkAloud

PS: I read some of the links. I understand that you actually believe in the existence of a God. If this is the case, then on what bases you say there is no Sin?


Belief in a god doesn't entail belief in sin. What if your God has no interest in sin? What if your God is involved in an aesthetic rather than moral creation?

I believe in God, certainly. But I see no reason to believe in sin.
on Oct 05, 2007
de·ter·mine

5. to give direction or tendency to; impel.

While I agree that determine can mean absolute control, you said

"Sin' is the construction of those who wish to determine the course of your life so that it, your life, serves their interests and not yours."

I assumed you didn't mean that sin was absolutely controlling people's lives, as if it was, there would be no sin. If God absolutely controlled our lives, there would be no sin. But, determine in the sentence the way I meant it was to give direction or tendency to. NOT to absolutely control. Hence, free will still exists. Now, if we're all done calling people names that are only applicable to the name-caller, maybe we can debate the point instead of the words used.

Basically, I thought you had said sin was made by man to give direction to the people, so that they would do the creator of sin's bidding. I just said it was God who created it for the same reason, so that people would do His bidding.

Basically, your whole essay is worthless, because you start with the premise that original sin was created by St. Augustine to prove that sin does not exist. Original sin is different than sin. It's a logical fallacy to say that man created original sin, therefore man created sin.

Sin and wrong-doing are one and the same from the standpoint of a Christian. As an individual you have a different definition of wrong-doing which does not include some things included in 'sin'. Okay, that's fine. But sin still exists as an absolute axe that everyone's head would fall under if it wasn't for Christ. The penalty for sin is death. Death is not the penalty for a fluidly defined 'wrong doing,' because you can avoid 'wrong doing' by simply not believing what you're doing is wrong.

Regardless, as you have 'progressed beyond Christianity' I doubt anything I have to say has any relevance to you, and probably seems idiotic to you. "I used to think like that, now I have matured into something much better." I believe your non-Christianity suits your personality. I don't think you would have been nearly as comfortable as a Christian.

Perhaps next time I'll use a better word for what I mean and we won't be having such misunderstandings, but I doubt it. After all, I'm an idiot heretic fool.
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