"If it's provable we can kill it."
Or, sex is fun. And holy.
Published on September 29, 2007 By EmperorofIceCream In Religion
There is no such thing as original sin. There is no such thing as 'sin' at all.

Original sin as sexual sin began life with the writings of Saint Augustine of Hippo, one of the most influential Christian writers and thinkers in the history of the Church. Augustine was not always a Christian. He was a convert from Manicheanism, and before his fascination with Dualism took hold he had been, by his own confession, a drunkard and a general debauchee, possessed by a rabid appetite for sex.

What he so eagerly enjoyed in his youth he was to deny to others in his later life, being tormented by guilt - or, as he put it, having repented of his 'sin'. Augustine is the principal originator of the doctrine of Original Sin as a sexually transmitted disease of the Spirit, a doctrine to be found in his greatest work 'The City of God'.

The Christians will tell you that sin is as much a physical as a spiritual reality. But if the source of sin is in the Spirit it can have no effect on the body; and if it originates in the body it can have no effect upon the Spirit, because the two are totally different in nature. Spirit is immortal and perfect; material reality, including the body, is fallible, subject to decay, and transitory. Original sin, as an idea, is equivalent to the statement "That apple is diseased, so these elephants will get sick." Not merely nonsense - but nonsense on stilts and turning cartwheels.

However, the fact that Original Sin is nonsense in itself hasn't had any adverse effect on its popularity as a staple of Christian doctrine and belief. It's also proved remarkably effective as a tool for controlling the behaviour of the believer. Once granted as a basic premise of faith, it's a perfectly serviceable argument to use in order to explain that sense of dissatisfaction and unhappines, that vague sense of malaise and discomfort we all feel, simply as a consequence of being born human in a human world. We all feel that things aren't right. That there's something wrong, somewhere. This faint sense of existential angst was the premise of Neo's search for the Matrix, of Faust's desire for 'unholy' knowledge, of the the alchemical search for the Philosopher's Stone (which had nothing to do with turning physical lead into physical gold, and everything to do with the transmutation of the human condition).

In order to exploit it you have to be able to explain it. And once you have, you have the ground for the Doctrine of Salvation and Damnation, for the hope of Heaven and the fear of Hell, and for all the opportunities for the exercise of power that come from the authentic belief that you (the family priest, the Church) control the eternal destiny of the believer. And the more things there are that constitute grounds for damnation, then the more opportunities there are for the exercise of that power.

Just as the canon of books that constitute the Bible did not fall ready-made made from Heaven but was constructed by men (primarily at the Council of Nicaea) so the idea of sin was constructed over time. Sexual sin in particular was constucted against the mores and sexual practices of the ancient Middle East, which were used by the early Fathers of the Church as standards to define what Christianity was not. It's always easier to say what a thing isn't than what it is. Augustine, womanizing hypocrite and drunkard that he was, took his own life and used his new-found standard of sin (everything he had done previously) and used it to define a new standard of Godliness and righteousness (everything he had not done previously - particularly in relation to sex). But so great was the spiritual paranoia induced by the history of his personal sexual adventures, as well as by his former devotion to heathen religious practices, that he had to find a ground for the 'corruption' of human nature (all of humanity had to be corrupt, because otherwise Augustine would have had to face an angry God alone) - so that this corruption had to be universal in nature - as well as a means of ensuring that every human being had by necessity to participate in that corruption.

The only possible contender is sex. And birth the perfect means of transmission. We're all created as the consequence of a sexual act, and everyone reading this was born of a woman. And because sex and birth come together in the bodies of women, women have always been condemned by both Augustine and the Church as the carriers of sin. Women, said Augustine, were the Devil's gateway.

If you look carefully into what's known of religio-sexual practice in the ancient Middle East (which included Temple prostitutes of both sexes as well as a whole host of sexual acts performed both openly and privately that most Americans regard with sickly prurience to this day) and then compare those practices to the sexual mores of contemporary American Christianity, you'll find every one of these formerly holy acts to be subject to condemnation.

Sin, and sexual sin in particular, were born out of two complimentary impulses: fear, and the desire to control others. It's no more a sin for two adult males to engage in sex than it is for two adult females, or for an adult man and an adult woman. So far is it from being 'sinful', that these types of acts have been practiced as holy rituals across human cultures and throughout human history.

Sin, far from being an act or acts subject to Divine punishment, is in fact an act or acts which are subject to the punishment of men, at the behest of those in Authority, using God as their justification and accomplice.

None of which is to say that there is no such thing as wrong-doing. From our days in the schoolyard, all of us know that some things are simply wrong. Ask any child, and he or she will tell you that snitching is wrong. They can't tell you why it's wrong, but they know that it is. They know that breaking a promise is wrong; they know that maliciously harming another is wrong. In other words, they know that it's wrong to break the bonds of personal trust and communal fidelity. Being children they can't put the issue in such terms, but they understand the principle - as do we all.

They know this because each of us has a conscience that doesn't depend for its integrity and meaning on religious revelation. Such principles form 'the Rules', with which every child is intimately familiar without any need for instruction by an adult, a priest, or any other intermediary. Conscience is formed in part by the mores of the community, and in part by the practice and example of parents. And any man could live at peace with himself and his neighbours if he simply followed the dictates of his own conscience.

Sin, however, is something distinct from this generalized sense of wrong-doing that we all share. Sin is wrong-doing flavored with religion. In order to say what I actually mean, I'm now going to have to introduce a couple of technical philosophical terms. The first of these is 'ontology'. Ontology is that branch of philosophy that tries to determine what makes a thing the thing that it is. What constitutes the 'horsiness' of a horse? What constitutes the 'grassiness' of a blade of grass? What constitutes the manliness of a man, or the womanliness of a woman, or the humanity of a human being? What are the first principles of being a particular thing that makes that thing the thing that it is?

And the second of these terms is 'teleology'. If ontology looks at first principles in relation to things, teleology looks at the processes by which those first principles operate. By what process does the 'horsiness' of a horse lead to the full expression of that principle in the adult horse? What processes are at work in the development of the child into the adult man or woman? But teleology and ontology are not random, as evolution is. A teleological view of the horse does not permit the idea that the horse as we know it today was ever any other type of creature than a horse. Early horses may have been less perfect horses than those of today - but they were never anything other than horses.

As Thomas Aquinas showed in his great work the Summa these ideas, first developed by the ancient Greeks, are not incompatible with the Christian doctrine of the soul as the animating force that gives life to matter, to flesh. Teleology, which is developmental in nature, shows that there is a principle at work in the flesh that leads to greater and greater sophistication and refinement. Ontology shows that this principle of development is not a part of the flesh itself but derives from something greater than and independent of the flesh - which in the Christian mythology is the soul.

What Augustine did was to argue that, through the Fall, both the soul and the body had become sick with the sickness of pride, with a delusion of self-sufficiency, and that this sickness, contaminating soul and body alike, was transmitted through the mechanism of sex. Why sex? Remember, Augustine had been a pagan, had made use of Temple prostitutes, had participated in rituals in which sex becomes the vehicle of communion with the Gods, is a sacrament in itself.

Whether he knew it or not, sex retained for Augustine a profound spiritual component - but a component through which 'false' gods, 'demons', now made themselves manifest. Sex, obviously, was the primordial means by which the nature of God (the imago dei) was imprinted upon the mind and body of the human being. And sex, therefore, was essentially sinful. And not merely sinful but the worst of all possible sins because the most perilous. As he was all too well aware, being himself a sexual sinner of (in his own mind) the worst sort, sex lead straight to Hell. And sex of the kind practiced in the Temples with which he was familiar, homosexual sex, promiscuous sex, ritual sex, was the worst of the worst of all possible sins.

Which is why Christians are so terrified of, fascinated by, and repulsed by, unregulated sex - especially unregulated sex that doesn't conform to what they consider to be 'natural'. Why other behaviours which, according to the school-yard code of 'the Rules' are far more damaging to the integrity of the individual and the cohesion of the community, go unregarded and unremarked.

It's wrong to tolerate poverty when you have more than you need. It's wrong to tolerate unfairness, prejudice, and greed. It's wrong to bear false witness. It's wrong to allow the weak to be subject to the arbitrary tyrrany of the strong.

But those things are not sins. They're just wrong.

The notion that there are sins for which we will be punished after death is at once hysterically funny (how much attention do you pay to the social interaction of the ant colony in your yard?) and an instrument of social, personal, and political oppression that has served the powerful well for two thousand years.

There is no such thing as sin. 'Sin' is the construction of those who wish to determine the course of your life so that it, your life, serves their interests and not yours. There is, however, wrong-doing. The sooner you realize the difference the less you will fear death, and the more free you will be.


The gods are dead (may they live forever) and only we remain. And the sooner we know it the happier we will be.

Comments (Page 2)
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on Oct 05, 2007
I believe in God, certainly. But I see no reason to believe in sin.


Good start. As long as you believe in the existence of God, believe it or not, we (that is you and I) are in agreement on no less than 90% of the issues involved.

your point is this, and please correct me if i misunderstood you: Why would a God who we say is sooo Great,Omnipotent, All-Knowing, Just, Eternal .... etc make certain actions "Sins"? this is your question.

Let me start by assuming that, since you believe in God, you also believe He is the Creator of US, humans, and everything in the universe we live in including its Natural laws.

Let me also point out that any comparison of what we, humans, do is just to make the point clear and confusion-free. However the difference between us, humans, and anything we deal with is insignificant compared to the difference between God and us humans. In other words, if a concept is true for us and we actually do it while dealing with other things in our universe, it is much more valid and true for God when He deals with us. I will assume you accept this point too. it is self-evident. You cant accept something for yourself then deny it for God.

given that you accept the above two points, then let me ask you one question:

Don't you, of all people (i mean all of us arrogant Americans   )recognize and accept that The Queen (or the King before her or any king for that matter)have certain Rights and Demands certain Protocols?

You accept those Rights and Protocols knowing full well that most of them are not really a necessity for her enjoyment, happiness, livelyhood or even her soverignty. Some of these Rights and Protocols make certain actions by you, her subject, unacceptable to her and either punishable or just she gets annoyed with you and denies you any more access to her. I dont think i need to give you examples. You are better suited for that. But i know of two simple ones. Bowing down a little when you meet her, and not start speaking to her unless she addresses you first. isn't that true?

well Emp, or is it Rev Emp?   ...  If you allow and accept that from a mere human because she happens to be The Queen of England, dont you think GOD, the One you accept as your Creator and the Creator of everything that sustains you in this universe have the same Rights and Protocols? Dont you think HE is even entitled to more Rights and More elaborate Protocols than a mere Queen. HE is GOD, and you dont accept his entitelement to the same things, and even more, that you accept for a Queen or a King?

He is certainly entitled to much more than a King or a Queen. He Created us, humans and everything that sustains us not just a King, who was installed over people God knows how. God is the King of all Kings and Queens. so why deny Him what you allow for those mortal Figureheads.

God, as you accept him, is not a Figurehead. He actually Owns, Rules and Bestows and in fact He Creates what he Owns, Rules and Bestows-upon which is the most unique qualitiy of all His attributes.

If the mortal King or Queen can punish their subjects for violating their Rights and Protocols, can't God have the same authority?

We can later discuss the details of why certain things are Sins and why did God ordered certain things. But the above is my understanding of why there must be such things as Sins. it is the Right and protocol of a Creator. Some of it, is just for protocols, some others are for the benefit of the system He created. We might not know why He ordered that we dont do certain things but HE is the Creator of that system and HE, ALONE, knows what is best for it to function as HE intended. That is one of His Rights as a Creator. The Designer of a simple gadget we use tells us how to use it and what NOT to do in or with it otherwise it will malfunction. I believe the Creator and Best Designer of ALL deserves the same.

Early this year i posted an article titled "Creation's Requirement" below is the link to it if you like more elaboration on this point.


WWW Link
on Oct 05, 2007
What if your God has no interest in sin? What if your God is involved in an aesthetic rather than moral creation?


You are absolutely correct. He doesnt have any "personal" interest in anything we do. He is self-suffiecient. whatever we do, doesnt affect him in the least.

As for Him being aesthetic .... oooh yes He is that too. One of His attributes is " The Greatest Artist".

well Rev Emp, since you brought this point. Dont you think an artist have the Right to display his work in a certain way? and maintain it in a certain way? and gets VERY upset if a goofy person like me comes and say, ooh that piece of art is not displayed the right way? or this color should have been different? or the shape of this lady's nose is not right and i will change it? I have no doubt that the artist will throw me out of his gallery and no one, no one will ever say that is not his right.

God's creations are His art work. I think you know what kind of Rights and Rules go with that for ANY artist let alone GOD, The Greatest Artist
on Oct 05, 2007
Original sin as sexual sin began life with the writings of Saint Augustine of Hippo,


Augustine is the principal originator of the doctrine of Original Sin as a sexually transmitted disease of the Spirit, a doctrine to be found in his greatest work 'The City of God'.


The fact remains that Original Sin as a spiritual disease transmitted sexually is the creation of one man, Augustine of Hippo, it has no basis in the Genesis account and no basis anywhere else in the Bible



Your explanation of Original Sin although quite fanciful is incorrect.

The C.Church's doctrine of OS is based upon Genesis and St. Paul's teachings in Romans 5:12, 19.

First, sin may be Original or Actual(personal)and Actual Sin may be mortal or venial. OS is not and never was a sexual sin. Period.
The sin Adam commmitted was the deliberate sin of pride (Gen. 3:22)which consisted in a formal disobedience and the express law of probation.

Although set by God in a state of rectitide, the first man, enticed by the evil one, abused his freedom. Adam lifted himself up against God and sought to attain his goal apart from Him...and into this world entered sin. When Adam sinned, he plunged the entire human race into a state of guilt. The point is simple and tragic---that man's guilt has distorted all his relationships, with God, with each other and with the earth.

Genesis 4-11 depicts the escalation of sin in the world, rippling out from Adam's OS. Cain murders his brother Abel, and sin reaches such proportion that God floods the earth---a symbol of chaos and destruction that sin brought to Creation. Genesis 11 tells us how human folly reaches it's peak, and man tries once again to become God's equal by building a tower reaching up to the Heavens. The rejection of God spills over into man's rejection of his fellow man. There is now division and complete lack of communication between nations.


Second, the Original Sin in which all mankind is born is not transmitted, rather it's inherited from our first parents. Adam through deliberate sin of pride forfeited his endowment of supernatural life by disobedience. The effects or consequences of the sin of Adam for his descendents are: IN THE SOUL: wounded the spiritual nature of all mankind, weakeness the will of man, darkened man's understanding (intellect), deprived his descendants of the spritual inheritance (Heaven) God intended for mankind, and caused concupiscence. IN THE BODY: there was the loss of man's extraordinary gifts plus new conditions of work, sickness, corruption and death into the world. ON EARTH: there was unfruitful soil, and animals became ferocious with one another and mankind.

Sex, obviously, was the primordial means by which the nature of God (the imago dei) was imprinted upon the mind and body of the human being. And sex, therefore, was essentially sinful.


According to Genesis sex wasn't sinful. God created everything and called His creation good. He created male and female and blessed them saying, "Be fruitful and multiply". God blessed them and rendered them fruitful. No sin here, in V. 31, "God saw all things that He had made ..were very good."

on Oct 05, 2007
To: lulapilgrim

What's inheritance if not transmission? Property is transmitted from one generation to another by inheritance. Genetic charactistics are inherited from parents by their children and that genetic inheritance is passed on or transmitted from one generation to another. Your attempted distinction is nonsense.

Secondly, Augustine defined Original Sin as originating in the Fall - as you describe. His contribution was to define the means by which the consequence of that sin was inherited (transmitted) to all Adam's heirs as sexual. It was this description of sex as the vehicle for the inheritance of ultimate guilt that was a profound influence on the creation and development of Monastic orders.

Thirdly, while God called his creation Good, God also condemned the behaviours of the creatures he had made. Female biology in relation to sex (periods and pregnancy) became a curse to women. Male desire became a curse to men. It was this cursing of sex, desire and pregnancy that lead Augustine first to describe Original Sin as being made manifest in sex, and secondly to describe women as the gateway through which the Devil entered the world.

Argue it as you like, but whatever God curses is sin.
on Oct 05, 2007
To: Jythier

Did I hurt oo's ittle wittle feelings? Awwww.

Never mind, because I certainly won't. I told you, I don't suffer fools gladly - or politely.

Basically, your whole essay is worthless, because you start with the premise that original sin was created by St. Augustine to prove that sin does not exist. Original sin is different than sin. It's a logical fallacy to say that man created original sin, therefore man created sin.


read the response to lula - if you can comprehend what I said there you'll realise how foolish the quoted comment is. I did not say that Augustine 'created ' Original Sin. I said he argued that the consequences of the Fall (the Fall being the Original Sin) were transmitted through sex as a spiritual infection that all of humanity suffered from.

Neither did I say that 'man created original sin, therefore man created sin' - though that would be the only proper reading of the events recorded in Genesis. Before man sinned concretely sin was only a theoretical possibility. Man made sin manifest in reality for the first time, therefore man created the reality of sin as opposed to a purely hypothetical spiritual possibility.

And that's entirely aside from my own certainty that humanity created and maintains in existence the spiritual reality that you profess to believe in as your god. Without the continued faith of believers such as yourself the god-form 'Jesus Christ' could not and would not exist. Since you and those like you who went before you created your god, you also created both the concept and reality of sin. Both in terms of real spiritual consequences and religious concepts there is no logical fallacy in the statement 'man created original sin, therefore man created sin'.

Further, in an attempt to out-do me you used my own words against me. And you certainly did not then define 'determine' as meaning merely to influence outcomes, rather than to cause outcomes to assume a certain form. You're welcome to back-pedal, now, as much as you wish. But don't expect me to accept your attempted redefinition of your original words as meaning something that they plainly did not because I won't.

Since I didn't say that sin was made by man, neither did I say that sin was made by man as means to control others. I said that the concept of sin has been used by those in power to coerce and control others. This is so whether you want to define sin as deviance from a religious norm; or whether you want to use the concept in a more allegorical way, in relation to deviance from a political ideology. Sin is social control as much as it is a failure in character - where both 'failure' and 'character' are defined by religious hierarchies.

I don't think you would have been nearly as comfortable as a Christian.


You could not be more wrong. I delighted in my Christianity for a number of years - until I recovered the habit of asking questions. At which point muddleheaded delight became clearheaded thinking - and everything I thought I believed in rapidly turned into emotionalism, bigotry, and self-righteousness, all pursued in the interest of defining my own psychological and spiritual reality in such a way that I could be certain that I was saved. Saved from what? Myself, of course. In the end I encompassed both my own 'salvation' and my own 'damnation' - by deciding, simply, to be myself.

Perhaps next time I'll use a better word for what I mean and we won't be having such misunderstandings, but I doubt it. After all, I'm an idiot heretic fool.


I'm certain it would be helpful to you if you thought before writing - if only because it must be painful to force your foot into your mouth. As to your being a heretic I was merely indulging in a little hyperbole. You don't have wit enough to be a heretic.
on Oct 05, 2007
animals became ferocious with one another and mankind


despite having been merely innocent bystanders, animals and plants were punished by their all-merciful loving creator? no right of appeal?
on Oct 05, 2007
To: ThinkAloud

your point is this, and please correct me if i misunderstood you: Why would a God who we say is sooo Great,Omnipotent, All-Knowing, Just, Eternal .... etc make certain actions "Sins"? this is your question.


First, let me say I appreciate the enthusiasm with which you have responded to my article. If I don't reply at similar length it's because I've already addressed some of your points in my respones to lula and Jythier.

My original point was simply this: sin is a human invention. It derives from the interpretation of Scripture in such a way that the social advantages of the powerful are maintained, and it operates through the fear of punishment after death. There is no sin in the sense of acts which suffer Divine condemnation; just as there is no 'salvation' and no 'damnation'. I should have made explicit the assumption that underlies my belief in the foregoing statements - that these things have no reality because (so far as I can tell) God has no interest in our status as moral beings. So far as I can tell, we are no more than the objects of an aesthetic impulse that we cannot comprehend. To me, the notion that God watches us to see if our actions are right or wrong is as ridiculous as the idea of my watching the inhabitants of an anthill to see if the ants within it are leading righteous lives.

God didn't make actions to be sins - we did.

Since I don't believe that God has any interest in the moral status of our actions your comments regarding the sovereignty and prerogatives of Kings and Queens are irrelevant. God is no more sovereign of the universe than an artist exercises sovereignty over the canvas he's painting. Artists create - they don't rule.

Your reference to a 'maker of gadgets' who creates a 'rule-book' for the proper use of the gadgets he's made is also inappropriate. we are not gadgets with specific functions that must operate in certain ways to function properly. we appear to be autonomous generalists with both reflixive and forward-looking capacities. Specific rules of operation are not applicable to such creatures because they would, if coercive and unavoidable, utterly contradict the capacity for autonomy; and if they were not coercive they would be utterly irrelevant.

Please don't confuse 'autonomy' with 'free will'. The will is not free, because the will is determined by desire. We possess volition, which is the motion of mind and body imparted by the last desire that impresses itself upon our consideration, but volition is also not 'free will'. 'Free will' is nothing but the necessary concept which accompanies, substantiates, and justifies, the concept of sin. 'Free will' and sin are both illusions, and both have the same source and origin - man.
on Oct 05, 2007
To: kingbee

I forget where, but in one of the letters of the Tentmaker (Romans or Hebrews, I think) he states that the whole of creation groans in anticipation of the glorious liberties of a redeemed reality. The doctrine of the franciscans in relation to such things is that while animal and vegetable existence is subject to the fallen nature of reality, their participation in that subjection is innocent and a participation in the sinless suffering of the Redeemer. That kind of argument is one reason the Protestant reformers maintained that Catholicism is a constant re-crucifixion of Christ because it maintains the perpetual existence of the sacrificial Act within time.

Actually, they suffer in the same way that we do and for the same reason. Because they are physical, embodied beings, and because the most fundamental reality of physical existence, and the commonest experience in that existence, is pain. It hurts to be alive. Hadn't you noticed?
on Oct 05, 2007
I would jump into the argument...but reading all those comments would be too much like school work.

Though I must applaud you on yet another controversial article that sparks such a lively debate.

~Zoo
on Oct 05, 2007
What's inheritance if not transmission? Property is transmitted from one generation to another by inheritance. Genetic charactistics are inherited from parents by their children and that genetic inheritance is passed on or transmitted from one generation to another.


Your point is well made...and well taken.

In "On the Baptism of Infants", St. Augustine wrote, "By the generation of the flesh, we contract original sin only; by the regeneration of the Spirit, we obtain forgiveness not only of original, but also of actual sins."


With this I could easily say, Adam's sin with all its effects was transmitted to all mankind.

Re: God's punishment in Genesis 3:16, "To the woman also He said: I will multiply thy sorrows, and thy conceptions; in sorrow shalt thou bring forth children, and thou shalt be under thy husband's power, and he shall have dominion over thee."

One of my commentaries quotes St.Augustine, City of God, xiv 26 on this passage specifically, "on thy conceptions". The multifarious sorrows of childbearing must remind all women of what they incurred by OS. If OS had not taken place, they would have conceived without consupiscense, (an inclination to evil), and brought forth without sorrow.

So, the sentence of punishment which Almighty God pronounced to Eve did not apply only to her, but to all women after her. Eve was subject to Adam before the Fall, as a wife must be always be to her husband. But this subjection only implied good order, not any hardships or any abuse on the part of man. It was different after the Fall. Subjection became servitude and liable to all sorts of abuses.
on Oct 05, 2007
Kingbee posts:
despite having been merely innocent bystanders, animals and plants were punished by their all-merciful loving creator?


EOIC posts:
Actually, they suffer in the same way that we do and for the same reason.


Genesis 3 tells us that God pronounced a sentence on Satan (cast down to Hell), the serpent which had been his instrument (is hated by man on account of its creeping, cunning and poisonous ways), the animals, and the earth itself all came under the curse.

Adam, who was made from the earth, was also the lord of the earth and having sinned, the curse upon him extended to all nature.

Prior to the Fall, the animals were plant eaters as death and killing had not made its entrance into human history until Adam's fall into sin. As a consequence of the curse, the animals, which before the Fall were attached to man, have become either shy or intractable or positively ferocious towards him. Even the elements and forces of nature are often hostile to him and destroy the work of his hands. Moreover, the devil has now obtained a certain dominion and can injure man.
on Oct 05, 2007
Prior to the Fall, the animals were plant eaters


so there was plant-killin goin on from the jump?

what was it plants did to warrant death?
on Oct 06, 2007
To me, the notion that God watches us to see if our actions are right or wrong is as ridiculous as the idea of my watching the inhabitants of an anthill to see if the ants within it are leading righteous lives.


This comparison would be true if God was not our Creator. We didnt create the ants and their hill, so it really doesnt matter to us what they do, unless they mess our sugar bowl of course. then we kill them.

God's interest in US (humans) is like the interest of the artist in his work. I defy you to find an artist, even KG-scrippler artist who doesnt care about his art-work. That is God's only interest in what we do. It doesnt affect Him in the least. But it bothers Him if we mess up His work. and i am not joking when i say His Art-work. He actually looks at all His creation that way. He loves, cares, control, ...etc His work as an artist would. The following is true and the artist is right here with me:

My grandson, now almost 8 yrs old, made a little booklet the size of a long rectangular stamp. He made that about 3 yrs ago. It has about 20 pages and is titled " If You Give A Mouse A Cookie". it is really funny and neat. the art-work is a KG-quality of course. He gave me that booklet and said "Gampy, i made this book for you .... keep it"

I keep it on the top of my small book case. On top of everything. and believe it or not, he comes everyonce and while and say, where is the book i made for you. I say, here. He says, dont loose it i made it for you.

I really dont know what happens if i lose this book. It seems that he watches what i do with it. If my grandson can be that interested in his art-work, i dont how in the world can God ignores His. And in fact He, God, does not.

Yes man made "Sin" materialize. You are correct in that. But God made the concept by deciding that certain things done in certain cases are not acceptable to Him. Why is that? because It is His art-work and He doesnt like these things to be done. Period. If you can allow the artist to manage and control what happens to and by his work, you certainly should allow the same to the Greatest Creator/Artist.
on Oct 06, 2007
polar bears and sharks once ate only plants?

you're not serious?
on Oct 06, 2007
Since I don't believe that God has any interest in the moral status of our actions your comments regarding the sovereignty and prerogatives of Kings and Queens are irrelevant. God is no more sovereign of the universe than an artist exercises sovereignty over the canvas he's painting. Artists create - they don't rule.

Your reference to a 'maker of gadgets' who creates a 'rule-book' for the proper use of the gadgets he's made is also inappropriate. we are not gadgets with specific functions that must operate in certain ways to function properly. we appear to be autonomous generalists with both reflixive and forward-looking capacities. Specific rules of operation are not applicable to such creatures because they would, if coercive and unavoidable, utterly contradict the capacity for autonomy; and if they were not coercive they would be utterly irrelevant.


We call it moral and immoral, He just said: certain things not to be done as I, GOD, tells YOU, My creation, My art-wrok. Dont mess it up. I, God, Created You, the Canvas, The display case, The display room and in fact the whole Gallery. I know how it should be displayed, and how the character should do and when, I, God, allowed you many things which you can do whatever you want and whenever you want with and to them. But the things I, God, told you not to do and must do you should listen but I, God, also gave you the abilty to disobey me. You, Humans, are my very special creation. That is why i gave you that ability. If You follow what i said i will even reward you with what you can never imagine. If on the otherhand you disobey i will forgive most of your foolishness as long as you realize your mistake. And you, Humans, make amend by doing good as i defined it and if you do enough of that i might wipe out all your mistakes and still reward you. One thing I, God, never allow and that is "Deny My Existence". Anything else i will see how you behave in general. I, God, know that you are not perfect, I created you and I know your weaknesses. Dont worry, Just do your best and try to follow what I said.

Yes we are not gadgets, but you forgot my note that any example is just to make the point. We are not gadgets and the designer is not God. and the artist is not God. neither of the Two create anything. They just use what is available and put it in different form using whatever God gave them of intelelct and imagination.

The comparisons are not invalid. They are applicable to a "T".

Yes we have feelings and brains and we can do things gadgets and human art-works cant do, that is why we get rewarded or punished for what we do.

But read the above again, as long as you believe in Him, He is very easy to deal with , really. no matter what we do He will always welcome us back with open arms with generous rewards if we always admit our mistakes.

What difference does it make if you call certain things Sin or wrong. it is just a name. the main thing is to admit that as a Creator, as an Artist He, God, has every right to decide how and what different things done or not done to His creations and art-work. After that, He is the Best in forgiving our foolishness and wrong-doings.

His sovereignty is musch more than that of an artist over his canvas. He actually creates His work and makes it animated and thinking and deciding, the human artist cant do any of that. But the human artist certainly have control of how and what happens to his art. you cant allow that to a mere human and deny it for God.
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