"If it's provable we can kill it."
Or, things are different now
Published on July 7, 2005 By EmperorofIceCream In Politics
Like many others, I had no kind or charitable thoughts for America in the immediate aftermath of 9/11. I was shocked but not surprised, and to me it seemed that an inevitability had come to pass that flowed naturally from the policies of the American government. Despite my lifelong love affair with the idea of America I had little idea of what America is, and like every other European I was deeply cynical about American sincerity, American generosity, American faith, American self-confidence.

I watched the people leaping from the burning Towers and the only word that came to mind was "suits..." What I felt was that kind of satisfaction the Germans refer to as 'schadenfreude' - delight in the misfortune of others and, though I would not have admitted it then, the motivation of that delight was envy and resentment.

I confess, I smiled as I watched them fall.

Cut to this morning, and the images on our TV screen here in Richmond, live from London, a city I lived in for nine years. Filthy, bloody figures, staggering in confusion. An eviscerated double-decker, one of the big rectangular ones that I used to ride every day to school. It would have been filled with people I knew and understood, with whom I found myself compellingly involved, 3500 miles away in a duplex in Virginia.

And suddenly there was another connection, as shocking, as compelling, to that instant in which I watched a man fling himself from a burning, collapsing building, to fall to his death. To that instant in which I smiled. I remembered my delight, and was filled with shame.

No policy of the American government, no act of the American government, justified what was done on 9/11. No act of the British government, no involvement in any conflict anywhere in the world, justifies what happened today to the people on that double-decker, or those riding the London tube.

And no argument for free speech or personal rights and liberties should stand in the way of the British government pursuing the perpertrators of the attacks against London with all the aggression, hositility, and relentless malice that the British are capable of.

Find them. Kill them. Kill those who shelter and aid them. Torture, with every means available, those who know where they are but will not give them up. Send more troops to Iran and Afghanistan, and root out every element of so-called 'radical' Islam wherever it is found in those countries.

Recognise that every Muslim already behind British and American borders is potentially an enemy willing to die so long as he can kill one of us first - and treat every goddamn one of them accordingly, as a threat to be controlled and contained, where it can't be directly eliminated.

And do not talk to me about your Islam being peaceful and moderate - not unless you are going to decry these crimes, and voluntarily work with the authorities to root out these 'radicals' who have 'stolen' your religion. If they've stolen it, go get it back - or be prepared to be viewed with suspicion and distrust by the non-muslims around you, and to face their hostility.

America is my country now, and I give to her, and every American, an apology for the resentment, envy, and mistrust that led me to smile as I watched innocent Americans die. Just as I owe the connection I feel to those people who died today, who lost someone today, who sits in horrible anxiety and dread today in London, waiting for someone to come home, to the evil acts of a handful of fanatics.

I will not say that I am grateful to them. I will say that I am grateful for the fact that I am able to feel shame, that I am human enough to sympathise with innocents murdered by madmen, man enough to want to kick someone's ass, and still English enough to want revenge for what was done in London today.

I cannot forget the image of that shredded double-decker. There would have been children on it, and old ladies, and lovers, and men going to work. Years ago, I was one of them.

No matter where I go, no matter which country I give my allegiance to, some part of me is fundamentally and undeniably English. Strangely, it has taken a journey halfway round the world, and murder in a far away city, for me to remember this.

Now I have, I will not forget.

Comments (Page 3)
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on Jul 08, 2005

Though the declaration of independence was signed in 1776, "we" were here long before then. The Mayflower landed in 1620. (And then we hanged a bunch of "witches" in 1692 - My family came over somewhere in between since they were born in England but a couple were hanged for witchcraft.... but, that has nothing to do with this topic what-so-ever...)

What is so special about a bunch of misguided pilgrims?  Everyone talks about the pilgrims, but Jamestown was settled in 1607 (and St. Augustine a lot earlier).  The Pilgrims were headed for Jamestown, but could not find it, so settled in Massachusettes.  The First thanksgiving was at Berkley Plantation before the Pilgrims ever saw a Turkey.

So who does everyone remember?  A bunch of lost colonist!

on Jul 08, 2005
So who does everyone remember? A bunch of lost colonist!


Dude, it was their snazzy clothes! Big buckles and big hats. they were da bomb!

IG
on Jul 08, 2005

Dude, it was their snazzy clothes! Big buckles and big hats. they were da bomb!

I forgot!

Next time, wear buckles on your hat to get noticed!

on Jul 08, 2005
This is what they want. We could pull every troop out of Afghanistan and Iraq tomorrow, withold every dime of support from Israel, and they would still seek to kill us.


Exactly. We are thre infidels, the unbelievers. It machts nicht to them whether we have tropps there or not...their aim is to see us either dead or kneeling facing Mecca 4 times a day.
on Jul 08, 2005
It's hard to admit fault...especially in a public arena.

Americans may have a hard time feeling compassion for you as well. Many people won't admit it, but I have heard some comments along the lines of...."Well, it wasn't THAT many people." It's the same kind of attitude that non-americans felt for us after 9/11. An inability to empathize with those in different circumstances.
on Jul 08, 2005
Recognise that every Muslim already behind British and American borders is potentially an enemy willing to die so long as he can kill one of us first - and treat every goddamn one of them accordingly, as a threat to be controlled and contained, where it can't be directly eliminated.


Considering the large muslim population good luck on determining friend from foe.

And do not talk to me about your Islam being peaceful and moderate - not unless you are going to decry these crimes, and voluntarily work with the authorities to root out these 'radicals' who have 'stolen' your religion. If they've stolen it, go get it back - or be prepared to be viewed with suspicion and distrust by the non-muslims around you, and to face their hostility.


Let's see what group takes responsibility before taking that step.

For arguements sake, let's assume that all your assumptions are correct and this act of violence is somehow connected with Mr. Bin Laden. You have anger that is understandable. While the people in the bus are innocent something provoked someone to do this. Now the question that should be asked is "Why" and "Who threw the first stone? Link

Mr. Bin Laden said something that stuck with me. It seems mighty appropriate.
"If you bomb our cities we will bomb yours."

Remember that.

on Jul 08, 2005
Bin Laden is a Saudi Arabian. Which of "his" cities have we bombed?


I can't believe people sympathize with bin laden. Pathetic.
on Jul 08, 2005
The key point that everyone misses is that when they chant "Death to America" in the streets, they don't mean "America", they mean Western culture as a whole.

These people would hate Denmark or France or Romania as badly as they hate us if their interests met in opposition. To them, a person from Sweden would be as culpable for these supposed crimes as someone from America.

That's why we now see a shift toward abusing Arabs. That's why the Egyptian diplomat was killed. They accuse the US of "It's our way or the highway", and yet we live peacefully with 90% of the nations who oppose us at every turn. They have no qualms against killing their NEIGHBOR'S kids if it cements their position.

They are the ones that are woefully intolerant. They are the ones who see a world made in their image. If anyone thinks these terrorists just want to be left alone, they are nuts. They can't abide the existance of an Israeli state, not even if it doesn't encompass Jerusalem. They can't abide the growing Western cultural influences. That's why they crush such with their intolerant Islamic law.

No, the time has come to see this as a war between nations that believe in Liberty, and nations who believe in totalitarian rule. Hussein wasn't threatened by America, he was threatened by Democracy. Had he been more powerful, he could have resisted us. What these feks could NEVER reisist, though, is the insistance from their people for freedom.
on Jul 08, 2005
No, the time has come to see this as a war between nations that believe in Liberty, and nations who believe in totalitarian rule.


You just got yourself an insightful from me for that.\

Slanderer.....you're an eejit. I defy you to go to the streets of London and tell someone who lost a friend in those attacks that they deserved what they got because Osama's just giving as good as he got. It fucking sickens me that me and mine sacrifice daily to protect your right to spout crap like that.
on Jul 08, 2005
Slanderer.....you're an eejit. I defy you to go to the streets of London and tell someone who lost a friend in those attacks that they deserved what they got because Osama's just giving as good as he got. It fucking sickens me that me and mine sacrifice daily to protect your right to spout crap like that.


What is more sickening, using 60 people to invade X many middle eastern countries and cause thousands of deaths or staying calm and catching those responsible without dragging nationalities into it?

Here let's look no farther than the authour.

Find them. Kill them. Kill those who shelter and aid them. Torture, with every means available, those who know where they are but will not give them up. Send more troops to Iran and Afghanistan, and root out every element of so-called 'radical' Islam wherever it is found in those countries.

Recognise that every Muslim already behind British and American borders is potentially an enemy willing to die so long as he can kill one of us first - and treat every goddamn one of them accordingly, as a threat to be controlled and contained, where it can't be directly eliminated.


And you accuse me of being an idiot? Sure. Remember at the time of this writing no one has even taken responsibility yet!

Bin Laden is a Saudi Arabian. Which of "his" cities have we bombed?


Very good. Now tell me how much given all that we know Mr. Bin Laden identifies with SA? Not much at all. A 4 year old child can recognize the context of his words are used in describing the muslim peoples.

Remember the first run of MOABs? Link in Afganistan? This was the forerunner to the bunker busters used in Iraq.
Link

Remember the first 2 weeks of the bombing of Baghdad? The shock and awe blitzkreig comments came from the heavy bombing used to minimize active resistance once the foot soldiers came in.
Link


on Jul 08, 2005
"Very good. Now tell me how much given all that we know Mr. Bin Laden identifies with SA? Not much at all. A 4 year old child can recognize the context of his words are used in describing the muslim peoples. "


Actually, you're wrong. What he differs with is the Saud family's leadership. You're twisting his words to mean something nice, when in reality what bin Laden means by "muslim peoples" is a huge, totalitarian, religiously oppressive state like Taliban ruled Afghanistan, except encompassing all the the Middle East and beyond. He's openly stated his plans for the Middle East to his followers in his recorded speeches.

I think it is pretty obvious what your perspective is. What R.H. is to nazis you seem to be toward bin Laden's ilk. I guess you buy into all the "Chickens come home to roost" garbage that people like Ward Churchill blather on about.
on Jul 09, 2005
Mr. Bin Laden said something that stuck with me. It seems mighty appropriate.
"If you bomb our cities we will bomb yours."


Innocent women and children being killed as collateral damage of war is as tragic no matter where it happens.

I remembered my delight, and was filled with shame.


It is courageous to admit your dark and ill feelings so you may see things in a better light. Individual triumph and enlightened growth for you, congratulations.

Through thick and thin, you Brits are our greatest Allies. My heart is broken for the loss and injury
on Jul 09, 2005
It never ceases to amaze me that some people, (like slanderer) can't distinguish the difference between killing innocent civilians unintentionally (as the US has done in a few isolated incidents) and deliberately designing attacks to slaughter as many innocent civilians as possible, (as terrorists do on a regular basis.)


Terrorists don't use LOAC training. They don't have a Geneva Convention card. They don't give a fuck who they kill, be it men, women, kids...if it's a living breathing human, it's a target for terrorists. Maximum impact is all they look at.

Slanderer, you really do disgust me. Truly.
on Jul 09, 2005
He and Reiki seem to be peas in a pod, sharing the sentiment that since some Iraqi civilians have been accidentally killed by our troops it's perfectly justifiable for these terrorists to deliberately target our civilian population.


Managing peoples feelings during a crisis is no small feat. The one point I want you to walk away with is avoiding a coarse of action that escalates the problem. This is not misplaced pacifism. This is about responding to a crisis with focus on the perpetrator without getting swept up with by public opinion. Turning a national tradgedy into a political statement is what fuels the fire. It was pretty obvious that the person who did this wanted maximum coverage and panic. They want fear, paranoia and division. The englishman is only too happy to give it to them. Answering a political statement with another political statement not gets people killed, but ensures a cycle of violence without end. See the last 50 years of Israel as a textbook example of what not to do. That madam is the tradgedy.

When Afganistan was invaded they had my support because they were pursuing those responsible for the killing. When they weren't but still getting thousands of people killed as with Iraq you had to answer - was this really the best coarse of action? I cannot stress enough the ability to focus. They only thing worse than living under a dictator is living in chaos. Now the 64 000 dollar question is which country is next on the axis of evil list which again adds fuel to the fire and again spurs on another terrorist attack. Where will the chaos spread to next?

Hard to believe some people are that farking stupid. What wastes of oxygen they are.


You're in fine ad hominum form tonight sugar. Speaking of stupid, do people believe the only way to stop the terrorism is having one nation wage full scale war on another? Then everyone is drawn in. Escalation is not the most constructive way of doing things.
on Jul 09, 2005
Link

Link

The above links reference an article in The Guardian newspaper, and the website of the author of that article - Tariq Ramadan. I particularly urge anyone interested in how an intelligent, articulate, thinking Muslim feels about these issues to visit Mr. Ramadan's website and read this.Link

There are too many comments, too many forks in the discussion, for me to respond to each individually.

I could have been serious and thoughtful, measured and responsible, in my response to the London bombings: but the sight of that eviscerated double-decker still haunts me, even though my initial anger has passed. If it were possible, I would again advocate internment for every Muslim, and I continue to advocate that the inmates of Guantanamo be treated with the most extreme harshness in order to extract every scrap of information that can be extracted.

I still advocate that more troops be sent to Iraq and Afghanistan, in order that centers of so-called 'radical Islam' be found and destroyed (and if that means bombing every madrassa throughout the Muslim world, if it means killing every cleric, so be it).

That's probably not very rational. It would certainly hinder any form of inter-communal communication. But right now I don't want to talk to these people. Right now, thinking about that double-decker, I don't want to talk. I don't want to engage in communication with anyone or anything remotely connected with Islam. I may do, in the future, but not right now.

As to comparisons between London and 9/11 in terms of the numbers killed, there is no comparison. But so fucking what?

Those who grieve, grieve, and their grief would be no greater whether ten, or a thousand or a hundred thousand had died in London.

I do not think I will ever forget that shattered hulk of a bus. I want to cry whenever I think of it, and what little rationality I have in relation to these things leaves me again.
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