"If it's provable we can kill it."
Or, I don't have a problem with my life. You do.
Published on February 19, 2006 By EmperorofIceCream In Misc
"I'm curious, LW. What would you say to people that consider this a co-depenant mental problem? You know that some would say that you just happened to hook up with someone who has a complimentary emotional flaw, right?
Granted, many also call homosexuality a mental or emotional problem. Do you see it as the same kind of thing? Do you think it is just something you are, irrespective of your experiences and mental adjustment, or something that came from how you were treated earlier in life?"

BakerStreet.
BakerStreet posted this in response to a comment made by my wife (LW) on another thread in which she's involved, having to do with submissive behaviour in women. As such things tend to do the discussion there has dipped its toes into the areas of S&M, and 'abuse'.

The reactions are of the usual kind - cries of outrage, shrieks of horror, hysterical accusations (having more to do with the fears and desires of those making the accusations than with anything said in the discussion) involving the defense of rape, and a veritable pantheon of shibboleths, cliches, fears, phobias, guilt, resentment and angst - BakerStreet's comment being possibly the most rational while exemplifying the usual array of American neuroses that surrounds anything to do with sex.

I'm not really concerned with the thread that sparked BakerStreet's comment but with the comment itself (quoted above) - but I thought a little backstory necessary as introduction to the comments I have to make on BakerStreet's ideas.

The first assumption he makes (in common with everyone else) is that a relationship that overtly expresses aspects of domination and servitude is 'problematic'. Like most, he seems not to see that the problem most often is with the observer, not with those actively involved. I've written in several places on here, and in a variety of ways, that such relationships are characteristic of human history (looked at personally - as in the personal is the political - or more 'globally'). I see no problem in our relationship and neither does LW.

BakerStreet postulates where others insist - but what he postulates - co-dependency, childhood abuse, or some more general flaw originating in experience and 'mental adjustment' - is no different, merely less insistent. This is the first area in which his comment is problematic. It takes for granted that its LW and I that have a problem, rather than he himself. A second difficulty is that in his comment BakerStreet proposes a dichotomy between past experience and mental adjustment, and 'sometthing that came from how you were treated earlier in life'.

Consider: what is there in our emotional, sexual, intellectual lives that wasn't formed by our previous experiences and our mental adjustments to it? Put another way, what is there in us that does not come to us from our earlier lives? Of course, to be able to appreciate what my question is asking, you have to take a step back from 'the normal' and see it as something we make, on a day to day basis, as part of the conversation that every society has with itself as to what constitutes it, what defines it.

None of us exists in a vacuum and if we're the products of our own experiences and our mental adjustments to it, we're also a product of the point of time which our lives span, the moment in history that our lives occupy, the intersection of everything we think we are with everything everyone else thinks they are, with everything everyone else thinks we are.

The fact that what we are exists somewhere between what we think and what everyone else thinks (whether in terms of individuals or nations and societies) doesn't mean that as individuals we don't play a role in negotiating that reality with others. And because it's a negotiation reality, normality, is not a factual place we occupy, its a debated and debatable place (in the old sense of a site of battle) that we move through. Some never take up more than one position or employ more than one strategy (those who see 'normality' itself as unproblematic) others occupy many places and employ many strategies.

Myself, I've come to follow desire as a guide, to employ reason as a means to understand what must be done to satisfy desire, and will as the vehicle that carries me toward completion of those goals. Sexually, this modus vivendi translates into S&M, politically (as a philosophy and an understanding, rather than a form of activism) it translates into what I've called civil authoritarianism. Socially it translates into a form of play-acting that conceals what I am from my neighbours and co-workers. If they could see what I am they would not like what I am (since they are typically American in terms of their sexual neuroses and political fears) which, at this point, could only work to my detriment.

I am, you are, the product of your past experience and your mental adjustment to it. Just as BakerStreet is. There is no dichotomy between previous experience and mental adjustment to it, and our inheritance from our earlier lives. That is what we are.

BakerStreet employs a straw man of an argument, hoping to catch his correspondent out. In the terms of his question LW's condition (and by extension mine) is either a consequence of some trauma in the past (in which case our 'sickness' consists in being unable to overcome that trauma); or it is the product of some depraved nature, natural to us but a deviation, a depravity, in relation to the norm for such behaviours - in which case our problem lies in a lack of self-discipline with which to combat and resist this depravity.

He makes a false dichotomy on the basis of his preferred version of what is right, the assumption that what we do is 'wrong', and then waits for us to trap ourselves by responding to the question in those terms. But what we do is not 'wrong', no more than it is 'right'. It's a private matter that has nothing whatever to do with public questions of appropriate behaviour, and still less to do with questions that ought to be settled through criminal law.

His construction of the question in these terms is made explicit in his comments on homosexuality. He refers to the 'many' who think of homosexuality as a mental or emotional problem - whereas in fact it's actually the solution to a variety of mental and emotional problems, just as heterosexuality is another such solution - thus safely insulating himself from accusations of homophobia. But it's he who has framed this question, and framed it in these terms, making a problem out of 'deviant' sexual practices (in this case, S&M, homosexuality, and submissive behaviour) where no such problem exists - except in the minds of the average American sexual neurotic.

In a society of civilized adults sexual matters would be a matter of civility. It's no concern of mine, as a citizen, what gender of person my neighbour most wants sex with. The bedroom only becomes a matter of public concern where criminality is involved - and in all cases of sexual behaviour between consenting adults, no matter what form such behaviour takes, the criminal law should have nothing whatever to say. Private disapproval, on the part of no matter how many, ought not to be the basis of public law applicable to all.

The prurient, obsessive, intrusive fascination with sex displayed in the terrors of the American public (typified by the truly grotesques outcry over Janet Jackson's breast), it's horrors and palpitations over the appearance of 'Brokeback Mountain', is no basis on which to create law that affects all private citizens. It's an attitude of mind that finds its only proper home in the embarrassed, frightened sniggering of children in a schoolyard. Among children it's natural and to be expected. Among adults it's repugnant. And while BakerStreet's comment is adult and civil in one sense, I hear in it, as I often do in news shows, in American advertising, in political 'debate' here, the sniggering of frightened and embarrassed children, too immature to address such questions as they ought to be addressed.

I don't have a problem with my life (nor do I have a problem with yours). LW doesn't have a problem with her life (I leave it to her to say if she has a problem with your life or not).

The only one with a problem here is you.

Comments (Page 4)
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on Mar 01, 2006
"Look on the bright side, every single person that was attracted to this site left when you shut the site down last week for your paying customers."


Eh, huh? There was an explaination page up.
on Mar 01, 2006

Look on the bright side, every single person that was attracted to this site left when you shut the site down last week for your paying customers.

No...not really.  People were still on the forums- just look through the dates.  It was just the main page that was down with a reason posted why it was down.  Besides, that is completely different than saying "I'm leaving" then never really doing so.

At least LW had the balls to pack up and leave when her hubby got exiled.  I didn't see you taking any stands for your woman when she was confined.  You just kept on blogging as normal.  So, don't come on here now and try and make some lame attempt at justifying what she did.  Debating is not your thing, so you might want to stay away from it.

on Mar 01, 2006
Right, there was an explanation page..but I wasn't able to even access the forums until a couple of days ago. I couldnt get to my blog, or that of anyone else I had bookmarked. Sure, I suppose one could try and navigate through the forums, which is like trying to drive a brick.

At least LW had the balls to pack up and leave when her hubby got exiled. I didn't see you taking any stands for your woman when she was confined. You just kept on blogging as normal. So, don't come on here now and try and make some lame attempt at justifying what she did. Debating is not your thing, so you might want to stay away from it.


I did stand up for her. I told you and...if you read this carefully..will tell you again, that it was a completely stupid reason for her to get confined. She told you to back off. Both of you had an argument going on and you kept on going on against her and she finally told you to backoff. That and the fact that at the time, and probably still is, confinement is something that isnt even mentioned in the TOS, so you just make up whatever turns your crank and go with it.

The problem on here is that the bloggers have some sort of innate fear of arguing with the admins (only two that I know of, probably more...not aware of any admin that isnt employed by Stardock at least...could be wrong). The favoritism that is shown on here is something that is hilarious at the least. You like some bloggers and let them get away with all sorts of BS...but when others do something you dont like, then whammo, confine them and let them back when their writing changes. Arguing with others is fine, call each other names, toss out insults left and right, but dont do that with an admin, or at least do it back. What is the point of expressing our viewpoints on here if our expressions are confined? I mean..WTF? Why can't admins be confined? When, during the argument between you two, did she suddenly cross the line and became more worthy of a swift confinement than you?

Then later on, you said you were testing her to see if she 'earned' her being taken off confinement. Testing her? What the hell kind of make believe bull crap is that? By making her 'earn' her unconfinement, you were making her change her blogging style...to something that YOU were happy with. Earn my ass. Correct me if Im wrong, but I believe Brad ended up taking her off confinement. You guys should have some sort of time limit. Confinement for a week, then get back to normal...not until you are happy with the postings of a person who pissed you off, thats an extreme bias.

Im not going to leave if Marcie gets canned. Im going to stand up for her on my own blog, if that happens again. Unfortunately, now she limits herself and her blog entries out of........well, it's not a fear, but she limits herself I think, because she doesnt want to put up with your crap.

Feel free to express your viewpoints, but if you tick off an admin, fear their wrath.

The problem here is that crap happens on here all the time. People say stuff that pushes everyones buttons, but if one of the select few that has the special magical button gets irritated...they get canned.

Would Simon get canned if she said that stuff to someone else? Certainly not. But with Brad, heck yeah.
Would Marcie have been confined if she told someone else to back off? Lol...yeah right.

On here, debating is not anyones thing because if we argue with you and push your buttons, we get canned...but if you push ours...what can we do? Jack crap, outside of leaving.
on Mar 01, 2006

On here, debating is not anyones thing because if we argue with you and push your buttons, we get canned...but if you push ours...what can we do? Jack crap, outside of leaving.

See, here is where you don't have a clue.  There is a *huge* difference between arguing and debating.  You can't debate- all you do is argue.  Debating is fine- arguing is not.

I also appreciate your imaginative history that you stated there.

It's pretty simple- if you don't like it here, leave.  You aren't doing us any favors by staying.  If you don't like how this site is run- leave.  It's not a democracy, it's not a service, nothing is owed to you. Yes, admins are not the same as the typical member.  Why?  Because we make the rules and have to deal with the pain that this site can be.  It's like dealing with a preschool most days. Don't like it?  Leave.

on Mar 01, 2006
See, here is where you don't have a clue. There is a *huge* difference between arguing and debating. You can't debate- all you do is argue. Debating is fine- arguing is not.


Debating is having a discussion back and forth about a topic. Arguing is pretty much pulling out all stops. Id beg to differ if you try to pretend the crap that goes on, on some posts are simple petty 'debates.' Its debate with others, but arguing with you. The fine line you draw is 'slightly' skewed. If there is such a huge difference between the two, I certainly dont see it in the argument between you two and dont know why you also didnt confine yourself because I dont know what she did, outside of telling you to back off, that warranted confinement. But...well all have pretty good imaginations, dont we?

I also appreciate your imaginative history that you stated there.

Lol, well Im not confused about it. You were told to back off and get off your high horse and took issue with someone telling you to do so. Then you confined that said person until....well heck, you didn't even do anything about it...Brad had to step up to the plate and take her off confinement, if I remember correctly.

You aren't doing us any favors by staying.

Well if it makes you happy, Im not here to appease you. Getting rid of someone who disagrees with you is not one way to manage anything, even if the service...despite your efforts to say it isnt, is free.

Yes, admins are not the same as the typical member. Why? Because we make the rules and have to deal with the pain that this site can be.

Ill be the first to say that I have no problem with there being rules, but those should be cleary stated in the TOS. Confinement is NOT listed anywhere. I mean crap...if you want, I could write it so it is more clear...Making up unwritten rules to get rid of someone you disagree with is not one way to run a service. But again, as so pointed out to me...it is not my site.

It certainly is not. It is Brads and thankfully, we have him here to keep some sense of...fairness? Of course, you pointed out pretty clearly as well that...well...this site isnt fair, but at least he evens the table somewhat.
on Mar 01, 2006

It certainly is not. It is Brads and thankfully, we have him here to keep some sense of...fairness? Of course, you pointed out pretty clearly as well that...well...this site isnt fair, but at least he evens the table somewhat.

Ziggy, do you think that Brad and I don't chat about this site?  Do you somehow think that we work independently of each other?  By your comments and your perception of events, you are more naive than I ever imagined.

TOS?  Excuse me?  Can you point me to a Terms of Service?  you can't.  Why?  Because there isn't one.  We have a terms of Use.  Why?  Because we are not providing a service- we are simply letting you use this site.  We don't have to be fair.  Everything is upheld by discretion of the admins.

If we got rid of anyone who doesn't agree with us all the time, then there would be nobody left.  Obviously you have missed the debates that I have gotten into with Baker (or Brad and Baker).  They were "heated" at the least.  Is he still here?  Yep.  Why?  Because he doesn't personally attack, and he's smart enough to know where the line is.  There is nothing really to understand about that.  If you don't "get it", then there is nothing I can do to help you.

 

on Mar 01, 2006
"Why? Because he doesn't personally attack, and he's smart enough to know where the line is. There is nothing really to understand about that. If you don't "get it", then there is nothing I can do to help you."


And, not to toot my own horn or anything, but I think how you contribute to the site and the relationship you have with the admins makes a difference too. Not in the way of favoritism, but people DO tolerate more from people who they know and who they know a particular characteristic isn't normal for. People who constantly bait, though, wear admins down.

If I were to say something like EoIC said, I doubt I'd be banned. Not because I am somehow better or because I am more liked, but because my USUAL behavior doesn't always tempt people to ban me. People like Dabe and others constantly stayed on that line, baiting admins mercilessly.

EoIC is probably a decent guy, but you have to admit, like some others that have come and gone he really, really got off on spurring outrage and pushing buttons and being as irreverant and in-your-face as possible. That gets old after a while, frankly.

It is one thing for someone you get reason from 99% of the time slips and calls you a name once in a while. On the other hand when you have to tolerate a derisive tone from someone almost every single post, well, it's a lot easier to throw the baby out with the bathwater. For most people there is just less baby.
on Mar 01, 2006
That sounded kind of snotty, and I apologize for not getting it across the way it was meant. To me it is more like "finding the level of the room" in comedy.

When you interact with people, you have to meet them somewhere between where you are and where they are. Some refuse and call it honesty to put people off-balance as much as possible. When you go out of your way to communicate with a Christian person in a way they'll be receptive to, that isn't dishonesty, it's tact. Others do their best to say just the right thing to offend.

I've been around long enough to know that what EoIC was venomed to do just what it did, he just didn't expect Brad to strike back. He expected the usual political behavior you see from people worried about 'image'. What folks like EoIC don't take into consideration, though, is that after all that snideness adds up to something a lot more than just one statement.
on Mar 01, 2006
That sounded snotty, too. I give up, lol.
on Mar 01, 2006
I've been around long enough to know that what EoIC was venomed to do just what it did, he just didn't expect Brad to strike back. He expected the usual political behavior you see from people worried about 'image'. What folks like EoIC don't take into consideration, though, is that after all that snideness adds up to something a lot more than just one statement.


Not snotty at all Baker. You are right on the money. I just can't fathom why that concept is so difficult for so many to grasp. Like I said in my other blog, some people have earned some leway, others have done the opposite. Not all bloggers are created equal. Life isn't 'fair', get used to it. My dad taught me that lesson when I was about 4yrs old.
on Mar 01, 2006
baker...

I agree with you *choke* *gasp*... What you're saying makes sense.

I learned with all the crap with Karma though, that now I *do* have to watch what I say. Because I feel if I disagree with her again, I'm gone. So I just STFU alot and ignore her comments. That seems to be the best policy for all involved.

And while I enjoy JU to no end, it's alot safer to blog on my other one. I can say whatever the fuck I want and not have to worry that an administrator will disagree with me, think I'm a retard, and from there on out, refute everything I say just because I'm me.

Ryan hit the nail on the head when he said this:
Unfortunately, now she limits herself and her blog entries out of........well, it's not a fear, but she limits herself I think, because she doesnt want to put up with your crap.


I *feel* anyway, like I'm on Karma's shit list, and that what I write has to appease her. So...if I need to vent about something that one of my students does or something a parent does, I do it elsewhere. Ever since the "stupid parents" article, that happened a LONG time ago, and that I hoped everyone would just count lessons learned and move on from, the only time she'll respond with something relatively positive is about medical shit. And at this point, I don't really give a rat's ass whether my hormones eat me a live or not, so I don't really want to blog about it.

~shrugs~ At any rate, I'm appreciative of the unique experience JoeUser has to offer, and I'm appreciative of the time, money, and effort that the admins put in so I can write, albeit on a more limited scale than July of 2004 when I started here at JU. My other blog home helps me keep connected with the people that really matter in life, and I think that's definitely a good thing.
on Mar 01, 2006
Marcie, think of it this way. If you are constantly having to stop yourself from saying things that offend people, maybe you are in the wrong crowd. You don't get on people's 'shit list' in a single instance. I've seen far too many people start off bad here and end up being welcomed. The people that have been banned from JU were a constant source of irritation.

That was my point. When someone is an active member who contributes and rarely makes a stink, they don't get bad for not watching their tongue every now and then. The reason they don't make a stink isn't because they stifle themselves, it is because the site is a fit for them. If it had just been your "stupid parents" article, I doubt you'd feel this way. I think you'll find it has been a lot of other things, too.

I suppose what I am saying is that if people have to constantly bite their tongues, maybe it isn't the site's fault. Maybe they aren't choosing their peers wisely. I wouldn't get along with holy rollers, and for that reason I wouldn't pick a Christian site to blog on. If I did, I'd have to bite my tongue constantly.

Maybe the folks who feel the most oppressed should just find someplace that better fits their mode of expression. A square peg is no better or worse than a round one, but when you try to shove it into a round hole it causes problems for both parties.
on Mar 01, 2006
Marcie, think of it this way. If you are constantly having to stop yourself from saying things that offend people, maybe you are in the wrong crowd. You don't get on people's 'shit list' in a single instance. I've seen far too many people start off bad here and end up being welcomed. The people that have been banned from JU were a constant source of irritation.

That was my point. When someone is an active member who contributes and rarely makes a stink, they don't get bad for not watching their tongue every now and then. The reason they don't make a stink isn't because they stifle themselves, it is because the site is a fit for them. If it had just been your "stupid parents" article, I doubt you'd feel this way. I think you'll find it has been a lot of other things, too.

I suppose what I am saying is that if people have to constantly bite their tongues, maybe it isn't the site's fault. Maybe they aren't choosing their peers wisely. I wouldn't get along with holy rollers, and for that reason I wouldn't pick a Christian site to blog on. If I did, I'd have to bite my tongue constantly.

Maybe the folks who feel the most oppressed should just find someplace that better fits their mode of expression. A square peg is no better or worse than a round one, but when you try to shove it into a round hole it causes problems for both parties.


lol...I know you think I should fuck myself, too, baker. I get it. I wasn't complaining about JoeUser the site for anything. I suppose you feel that I am because you think I have the victim thing going on because you have me ALL FIGURED OUT! I *have* been discouraged by the continued "perceived" bad blood between Karma and I since last fall. I'm not leaving here because you don't like me and I'm a "square peg in a round hole" *THAT* was snotty. I CHOOSE to write about more sensitive issues on my other blog because for the most part I enjoy my online pals here at JoeUser, and some people aren't able to discern a random vent from an overall attitude, even with a stupidity disclaimer. It would be hard for me to only reply to other people's blogs here and not post anything of my own, or not post anything at all just because I have my "buddies" here. If you don't like me or the shit I write, why do you bother to respond. Since your response tells me that I make your JU experience crap-ass, why not just ignore and I'll ignore you. Wouldn't that be nice?
on Mar 01, 2006
See, that right there is a perfect example. Just like your reaction to my post on what 'smart' means. The interaction around here seems toxic to you. The only option we have is to agree with you, or you take offense. Maybe the problem isn't us.
on Mar 01, 2006

I *feel* anyway, like I'm on Karma's shit list, and that what I write has to appease her.

Oh, please.  It wasn't your blog or your opinions that got you confined, it was your personal attacks on me.  I guess you still don't "get it". 

LW and I didn't get along when she first started.  I even confined her in the past.  Did she ever walk on egg shells around me?  No, because she knew the line.  She'd 100% disagree with me, but wouldn't attack me. (see the key difference there?)  She also would back off when asked to (another thing people don't seem to get). 

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