"If it's provable we can kill it."
Or, I don't have a problem with my life. You do.
Published on February 19, 2006 By EmperorofIceCream In Misc
"I'm curious, LW. What would you say to people that consider this a co-depenant mental problem? You know that some would say that you just happened to hook up with someone who has a complimentary emotional flaw, right?
Granted, many also call homosexuality a mental or emotional problem. Do you see it as the same kind of thing? Do you think it is just something you are, irrespective of your experiences and mental adjustment, or something that came from how you were treated earlier in life?"

BakerStreet.
BakerStreet posted this in response to a comment made by my wife (LW) on another thread in which she's involved, having to do with submissive behaviour in women. As such things tend to do the discussion there has dipped its toes into the areas of S&M, and 'abuse'.

The reactions are of the usual kind - cries of outrage, shrieks of horror, hysterical accusations (having more to do with the fears and desires of those making the accusations than with anything said in the discussion) involving the defense of rape, and a veritable pantheon of shibboleths, cliches, fears, phobias, guilt, resentment and angst - BakerStreet's comment being possibly the most rational while exemplifying the usual array of American neuroses that surrounds anything to do with sex.

I'm not really concerned with the thread that sparked BakerStreet's comment but with the comment itself (quoted above) - but I thought a little backstory necessary as introduction to the comments I have to make on BakerStreet's ideas.

The first assumption he makes (in common with everyone else) is that a relationship that overtly expresses aspects of domination and servitude is 'problematic'. Like most, he seems not to see that the problem most often is with the observer, not with those actively involved. I've written in several places on here, and in a variety of ways, that such relationships are characteristic of human history (looked at personally - as in the personal is the political - or more 'globally'). I see no problem in our relationship and neither does LW.

BakerStreet postulates where others insist - but what he postulates - co-dependency, childhood abuse, or some more general flaw originating in experience and 'mental adjustment' - is no different, merely less insistent. This is the first area in which his comment is problematic. It takes for granted that its LW and I that have a problem, rather than he himself. A second difficulty is that in his comment BakerStreet proposes a dichotomy between past experience and mental adjustment, and 'sometthing that came from how you were treated earlier in life'.

Consider: what is there in our emotional, sexual, intellectual lives that wasn't formed by our previous experiences and our mental adjustments to it? Put another way, what is there in us that does not come to us from our earlier lives? Of course, to be able to appreciate what my question is asking, you have to take a step back from 'the normal' and see it as something we make, on a day to day basis, as part of the conversation that every society has with itself as to what constitutes it, what defines it.

None of us exists in a vacuum and if we're the products of our own experiences and our mental adjustments to it, we're also a product of the point of time which our lives span, the moment in history that our lives occupy, the intersection of everything we think we are with everything everyone else thinks they are, with everything everyone else thinks we are.

The fact that what we are exists somewhere between what we think and what everyone else thinks (whether in terms of individuals or nations and societies) doesn't mean that as individuals we don't play a role in negotiating that reality with others. And because it's a negotiation reality, normality, is not a factual place we occupy, its a debated and debatable place (in the old sense of a site of battle) that we move through. Some never take up more than one position or employ more than one strategy (those who see 'normality' itself as unproblematic) others occupy many places and employ many strategies.

Myself, I've come to follow desire as a guide, to employ reason as a means to understand what must be done to satisfy desire, and will as the vehicle that carries me toward completion of those goals. Sexually, this modus vivendi translates into S&M, politically (as a philosophy and an understanding, rather than a form of activism) it translates into what I've called civil authoritarianism. Socially it translates into a form of play-acting that conceals what I am from my neighbours and co-workers. If they could see what I am they would not like what I am (since they are typically American in terms of their sexual neuroses and political fears) which, at this point, could only work to my detriment.

I am, you are, the product of your past experience and your mental adjustment to it. Just as BakerStreet is. There is no dichotomy between previous experience and mental adjustment to it, and our inheritance from our earlier lives. That is what we are.

BakerStreet employs a straw man of an argument, hoping to catch his correspondent out. In the terms of his question LW's condition (and by extension mine) is either a consequence of some trauma in the past (in which case our 'sickness' consists in being unable to overcome that trauma); or it is the product of some depraved nature, natural to us but a deviation, a depravity, in relation to the norm for such behaviours - in which case our problem lies in a lack of self-discipline with which to combat and resist this depravity.

He makes a false dichotomy on the basis of his preferred version of what is right, the assumption that what we do is 'wrong', and then waits for us to trap ourselves by responding to the question in those terms. But what we do is not 'wrong', no more than it is 'right'. It's a private matter that has nothing whatever to do with public questions of appropriate behaviour, and still less to do with questions that ought to be settled through criminal law.

His construction of the question in these terms is made explicit in his comments on homosexuality. He refers to the 'many' who think of homosexuality as a mental or emotional problem - whereas in fact it's actually the solution to a variety of mental and emotional problems, just as heterosexuality is another such solution - thus safely insulating himself from accusations of homophobia. But it's he who has framed this question, and framed it in these terms, making a problem out of 'deviant' sexual practices (in this case, S&M, homosexuality, and submissive behaviour) where no such problem exists - except in the minds of the average American sexual neurotic.

In a society of civilized adults sexual matters would be a matter of civility. It's no concern of mine, as a citizen, what gender of person my neighbour most wants sex with. The bedroom only becomes a matter of public concern where criminality is involved - and in all cases of sexual behaviour between consenting adults, no matter what form such behaviour takes, the criminal law should have nothing whatever to say. Private disapproval, on the part of no matter how many, ought not to be the basis of public law applicable to all.

The prurient, obsessive, intrusive fascination with sex displayed in the terrors of the American public (typified by the truly grotesques outcry over Janet Jackson's breast), it's horrors and palpitations over the appearance of 'Brokeback Mountain', is no basis on which to create law that affects all private citizens. It's an attitude of mind that finds its only proper home in the embarrassed, frightened sniggering of children in a schoolyard. Among children it's natural and to be expected. Among adults it's repugnant. And while BakerStreet's comment is adult and civil in one sense, I hear in it, as I often do in news shows, in American advertising, in political 'debate' here, the sniggering of frightened and embarrassed children, too immature to address such questions as they ought to be addressed.

I don't have a problem with my life (nor do I have a problem with yours). LW doesn't have a problem with her life (I leave it to her to say if she has a problem with your life or not).

The only one with a problem here is you.

Comments (Page 5)
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on Mar 01, 2006
Oh, please. It wasn't your blog or your opinions that got you confined, it was your personal attacks on me. I guess you still don't "get it".

LW and I didn't get along when she first started. I even confined her in the past. Did she ever walk on egg shells around me? No, because she knew the line. She'd 100% disagree with me, but wouldn't attack me. (see the key difference there?) She also would back off when asked to (another thing people don't seem to get).


I still feel you won't let it go. Prior to "the incident"...you were very pleasant in all of your responses. After "the incident," lots seem to have that air of hostility. It's been six months.

You've got your mind set on what I am and whatever else. ~shrugs~ It's your gig.
on Mar 01, 2006
The only option we have is to agree with you, or you take offense. Maybe the problem isn't us


You refuse to see ANY validity in what I say. You think it's all crap. That's what pisses me off.

I didn't say the problem wasn't anyone. I love the way you put words in my "fingers".
on Mar 01, 2006
TOS? Excuse me? Can you point me to a Terms of Service? you can't. Why? Because there isn't one. We have a terms of Use. Why? Because we are not providing a service- we are simply letting you use this site. We don't have to be fair. Everything is upheld by discretion of the admins.


You are excused. TOU.

Ok...maybe its my sarcasm coming through here, but if we didnt 'use' your site...what would the point of the site be?

Not in the way of favoritism, but people DO tolerate more from people who they know and who they know a particular characteristic isn't normal for.

While yes, this might be ideal for some...I dont want to be on the good side of people, if that makes any sense. I dont want people let stuff I say slide, when others say the exact same crap and get punished for it. Karma herself often replied on my blogs after Sabrina did, and when I started to debate...they both went off on me. I dont know how many times she has posted her opinion of me, and no matter what I write, something is etched into her head about me that wont go away....aka...she doesnt get over it.

With each person on here, each post, each blog is a fresh start in my mind. I often disagreed with Sabrina, and sometimes would even agree with her. I didnt constantly belittle her no matter what she wrote.

On the other hand when you have to tolerate a derisive tone from someone almost every single post, well, it's a lot easier to throw the baby out with the bathwater

The problem is...this happens when the admins are the ones having to deal with the tone...when I have to put up with it...nothing happens. Ive had to put up with language and insult on here, that I havent heard of...being used in connection with me, in 15 years. I had an issue with Sabrina a while back and she put an article on her own blog and went off on me as well, attacking me with selected words. Im over it, but I was pretty ticked off at the time that nobody in the admin department did anything about it. Clique!

Not all bloggers are created equal. Life isn't 'fair', get used to it. My dad taught me that lesson when I was about 4yrs old.

Right, as do most people. The thing is that on here...there IS favoritism. This site should be somewhat fair in that the admins shouldnt take sides. Sure, they can post what they want and argue and debate...but when one person is allowed to totally freak out and go off, while another person can not and is kicked out....I don't think that is right. What Marcie says is right about her posting. We both have a feeling like Karma is hovering over our blogs and our comments just waiting to push a button. I could personally care less myself, but I don't think we should feel that way. Either let us blog, or dont. But don't constantly let us feel that we have to scale back our writing or comments just because of a past disagreement or comment. Along with learning that 'life is not fair' when I was 4 years old...I also learned to 'get over it'.

Marcie, think of it this way. If you are constantly having to stop yourself from saying things that offend people, maybe you are in the wrong crowd.

I think the thing was that she was just having disagreements with others who couldnt see her perspective. I as a teacher, used to make many posts regarding education. One in particular was how I told a parent of a concern I had regarding their childs speech. I was totally floored when most of the replies and comments I got where from parents saying it was no business of mine to be that concerned about their child. Its like me sitting here and telling Brad I could have made a better version of GalCivII from scratch in 30 minutes blindfolded. You guys have no idea. We have debates and arguments and often they get heated because they dont see from our perspective and that frustrates us because we feel often that it is a no-brainer. When Karma and her started going back and forth, that is where the confinement kicked in.


on Mar 01, 2006
Oh, please. It wasn't your blog or your opinions that got you confined, it was your personal attacks on me. I guess you still don't "get it". LW and I didn't get along when she first started. I even confined her in the past. Did she ever walk on egg shells around me? No, because she knew the line. She'd 100% disagree with me, but wouldn't attack me. (see the key difference there?) She also would back off when asked to (another thing people don't seem to get).


You are going to have one hell of a time trying to convince me that Marcie was the only one attacking and you were doing nothing except brushing your pretty princess pony.
on Mar 01, 2006
"You refuse to see ANY validity in what I say. You think it's all crap. That's what pisses me off."


Yes, I think it is all crap. I'm sorry that what I think is such a problem for you. That was my point. If people thinking you are full of crap bothers you that much, perhaps you should choose peers who share your crappy views?

Or, you could tolerate dissent as the rest of us do constantly, without all the 'woe is me, nobody loves me' junk.

"While yes, this might be ideal for some...I dont want to be on the good side of people, if that makes any sense.


No, you miss the point. If you have a neighbor that is peaceful for ten years and then starts fighting with his wife at the top of their lungs, you tend to overlook it. If you have someone who does it every single day, you get tired of it rather quickly.

When he finally does it one time too many, it isn't that one instance that is provoking a response, it is that lack of ten peaceful years. What you are talking about smacks of zero tolerance. As if someone who speeds once in 10 years should be punished the same as someone who gets caught every week. People get sick of the baiting and melodrama.

...therefore people who contribute a lot to the site and rarely cause petty feuds are more valued. It isn't because they bite their tongues, it is because they don't NEED to bite their tongues. If people do need to, maybe it is the wrong environment.

It's easy to think of it as favoritism, but you have to accept that there are a lot of people around here that Brad isn't crazy about that don't bite their tongue every sentence. It's the knack of people to always look for the cause of their conflicts outside themselves, instead of wondering why it is them that is always 'on the shitlist'...
on Mar 01, 2006
Baker~

I fucked up. Well, Karma thinks I fucked up.

And I've moved on. I am emotional. ANd that's how I run. And you don't like it. And that's fine.

You're one of the few I hear bitching and moaning about me. Seriously. There isn't a "fuck Marcie" ideology going around any longer. There was for a while. And it was deserved.

Even Sabrina could get over it now again. You however, refuse to get on with life, and hold the shit close to your heart just cause you like it that way.

And that's fine. Because I don't give a rat's ass what you or Karma or whomever else thinks. If you like that preconceived notion you have of me, that's a-okay in my book. You're just words on a screen to me. Inhuman if you will. So...yup...you're right Baker...just like always.

There's your little ego stroke for the day. Adios.
on Mar 01, 2006

Ok...maybe its my sarcasm coming through here, but if we didnt 'use' your site...what would the point of the site be?

Der...that's why it is a TOU not a TOS.  There is no "service".  It's a "use at your own risk- we owe you nothing" site.

You are going to have one hell of a time trying to convince me that Marcie was the only one attacking and you were doing nothing except brushing your pretty princess pony.

You're still not getting it.  Maybe you should listen to Baker a bit more.  He understands perfectly.  Damn....now I'm agreeing with Baker...what has this world come to?

And that's fine. Because I don't give a rat's ass what you or Karma or whomever else thinks.

Then why do you keep trying so desperately to "prove" something?

on Mar 01, 2006
Then why do you keep trying so desperately to "prove" something?


And why do you keep trying so desperately to keep my nose stuck in the mud bowed to you?
on Mar 01, 2006
No, marcie, If you take a good look, you'll find the only people you toss a fit about are people you have had problems with in the past.

Grudges? The lady doth protest too much, methinks. You are the one that only accepts criticism from people you like. You have a serious problem refusing to accept your part in conflict, Marcie. You have a persecution complex the size of texas, and you project your grudges on people.

I haven't been able to post a thing in response to you in months that you didn't start this same, sad whinefest. If you had the ability to look at yourself honestly you'd see that.
on Mar 01, 2006

And why do you keep trying so desperately to keep my nose stuck in the mud bowed to you?

I don't.  You just think that.  Just like how you think that Baker is saying something different to you than he is.  You and Ziggy are so predictable that it amazes me.  Your buttons are pushed so easily.  Trust me, if I wanted you gone, I could have easily gotten both of you to cross the line by now.  Why haven't I?  Because I don't care.  I have nothing "out" for you, it's just what *you* think.

on Mar 01, 2006
I have nothing "out" for you, it's just what *you* think.


lol...and you enjoy it...

Whatever.
on Mar 01, 2006

If I were to say something like EoIC said, I doubt I'd be banned. Not because I am somehow better or because I am more liked, but because my USUAL behavior doesn't always tempt people to ban me. People like Dabe and others constantly stayed on that line, baiting admins mercilessly.

Bakerstreet, that's one of the most insightful things I've seen here.  Yes. Yes. Precisely. 

Let's call it "political capital".  Different people in different situations can build up political capital by being constructive, contributing members of a given community.  The longer smoeone is in a community, the more likely they're going to have a bad day. When that happens, they may say something that if it were a new user, they'd get in trouble. 

In the skinning community which is where Bakerstreet and I come from originally (in terms of JU), there are aleays cries of favortism because SkinnerX is allowed to get away with X while new user Y does not.  I think that's just a normal part of life and some people have a hard time dealing with that.

LittleWhip, for instance, probably could have gotten away with the saem comments Simon did. I might have emailed her privately to tell her to cut it.  Heck, Myrrander might have been able to get away with it too.  But Simon has never behaved in any way that I could even remotely describe as civil.  He's been vile and nasty in every instance I've interacted with him.  I'd go as far as to say he's gratuitiously nasty (i.e. a jerk for the sake of being a jerk).  So he'd already used up all his benefits of the doubt before he got into trotting out the "I'm a customer, kiss my ass" type attitude.

on Mar 01, 2006

Marcie:

If I might make an observation, I think one of the issues you run into is that you take criticism as a personal attack.  There is a difference. 

on Mar 01, 2006

Ok...maybe its my sarcasm coming through here, but if we didnt 'use' your site...what would the point of the site be?

The point of the site is to serve as my personal blog site to allow articles that I write to be syndicated easily to various Stardock sites.  When I write about games, they go to our gaming sites (www.galciv2.com and www.totalgaming.net) .  When I write about skinning or tech, they go to WinCustomize.com (www.wincustomize.com) or PowerUser.tv (www.poweruser.tv) or www.xpthemes.com. When I write about politics they go to www.politicalmachine.com.

A point system was created such that we could find out which articles that I and other Stardock people wrote were of the most interest.

At that point, it was fairly trivial to open it up to other users to try it out.  But those other users having blogs is not central to whether JU exists or not.  Simply put, we opened it up because it was easy to do and we thought it would be fun.  And it IS fun, most of the time.  It's just when users confuse our generosity with being a professional service and behaving as if they are customers simply because we're allowing them to have a blog here.

We WANT people to have blogs here in the same sense that someone throwing a party wants people to show up.  But it's not required and anyone who doesn't want to come to the party is free to not come and anyone not having a good time at the party is free to go.

on Mar 01, 2006

Right, as do most people. The thing is that on here...there IS favoritism. This site should be somewhat fair in that the admins shouldnt take sides

Yes. There is favortism.  We favor the bloggers we like over the bloggers we don't like.  There are bloggers whose writings we prefer over others.  I feature articles based on whether I like it and whether I think it will bring more traffic to the home page. 

Where does that favortism come from?  Because some people contribute to the community. They are constructive and helpful.  They help BUILD a community.  Then there are those who try to tear down communities. Toxic users are what they're often called. 

Ziggy - you and Marcie are in neither category.  You're just new to on-line communities.  Marcie's main issue is that she debates with her heart and not with her head.  And that's not debating. That's simply "feeling" strongly about "things".  A lot of people are like that, but they shouldn't get involved in serious debates.  Some people, myself included, enjoy debating intellectual topics.  But we get frustrated with people who simply argue.  People who don't want to deal with the world as it is but how they should be.

Debates aren't about how the world should be. It's about how the world is.  It's not favoritism to feature one blog over another in the sense you seem to think.  People, through time and effort, earn respect, earn credibility. 

Anyone who knew Bakerstreet and mine's past history together would find it laughable when people argue that I show favortism towards Bakerstreet.  We've had battles that make this Simon thing look trivial.  Yet he's the highest access non-Stardock person on this site.  Why is that? Does he have mind control powers? No. It's because he's earned it.  He's earned respect not just from me but from the thousands of readers who read what he writes and many (probably most) of the regulars on this site. 

What some people seem to want is immediate gratification.  We provide equal opportunity here for success but we don't garauntee equal results.

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