"If it's provable we can kill it."
Or, I don't have a problem with my life. You do.
Published on February 19, 2006 By EmperorofIceCream In Misc
"I'm curious, LW. What would you say to people that consider this a co-depenant mental problem? You know that some would say that you just happened to hook up with someone who has a complimentary emotional flaw, right?
Granted, many also call homosexuality a mental or emotional problem. Do you see it as the same kind of thing? Do you think it is just something you are, irrespective of your experiences and mental adjustment, or something that came from how you were treated earlier in life?"

BakerStreet.
BakerStreet posted this in response to a comment made by my wife (LW) on another thread in which she's involved, having to do with submissive behaviour in women. As such things tend to do the discussion there has dipped its toes into the areas of S&M, and 'abuse'.

The reactions are of the usual kind - cries of outrage, shrieks of horror, hysterical accusations (having more to do with the fears and desires of those making the accusations than with anything said in the discussion) involving the defense of rape, and a veritable pantheon of shibboleths, cliches, fears, phobias, guilt, resentment and angst - BakerStreet's comment being possibly the most rational while exemplifying the usual array of American neuroses that surrounds anything to do with sex.

I'm not really concerned with the thread that sparked BakerStreet's comment but with the comment itself (quoted above) - but I thought a little backstory necessary as introduction to the comments I have to make on BakerStreet's ideas.

The first assumption he makes (in common with everyone else) is that a relationship that overtly expresses aspects of domination and servitude is 'problematic'. Like most, he seems not to see that the problem most often is with the observer, not with those actively involved. I've written in several places on here, and in a variety of ways, that such relationships are characteristic of human history (looked at personally - as in the personal is the political - or more 'globally'). I see no problem in our relationship and neither does LW.

BakerStreet postulates where others insist - but what he postulates - co-dependency, childhood abuse, or some more general flaw originating in experience and 'mental adjustment' - is no different, merely less insistent. This is the first area in which his comment is problematic. It takes for granted that its LW and I that have a problem, rather than he himself. A second difficulty is that in his comment BakerStreet proposes a dichotomy between past experience and mental adjustment, and 'sometthing that came from how you were treated earlier in life'.

Consider: what is there in our emotional, sexual, intellectual lives that wasn't formed by our previous experiences and our mental adjustments to it? Put another way, what is there in us that does not come to us from our earlier lives? Of course, to be able to appreciate what my question is asking, you have to take a step back from 'the normal' and see it as something we make, on a day to day basis, as part of the conversation that every society has with itself as to what constitutes it, what defines it.

None of us exists in a vacuum and if we're the products of our own experiences and our mental adjustments to it, we're also a product of the point of time which our lives span, the moment in history that our lives occupy, the intersection of everything we think we are with everything everyone else thinks they are, with everything everyone else thinks we are.

The fact that what we are exists somewhere between what we think and what everyone else thinks (whether in terms of individuals or nations and societies) doesn't mean that as individuals we don't play a role in negotiating that reality with others. And because it's a negotiation reality, normality, is not a factual place we occupy, its a debated and debatable place (in the old sense of a site of battle) that we move through. Some never take up more than one position or employ more than one strategy (those who see 'normality' itself as unproblematic) others occupy many places and employ many strategies.

Myself, I've come to follow desire as a guide, to employ reason as a means to understand what must be done to satisfy desire, and will as the vehicle that carries me toward completion of those goals. Sexually, this modus vivendi translates into S&M, politically (as a philosophy and an understanding, rather than a form of activism) it translates into what I've called civil authoritarianism. Socially it translates into a form of play-acting that conceals what I am from my neighbours and co-workers. If they could see what I am they would not like what I am (since they are typically American in terms of their sexual neuroses and political fears) which, at this point, could only work to my detriment.

I am, you are, the product of your past experience and your mental adjustment to it. Just as BakerStreet is. There is no dichotomy between previous experience and mental adjustment to it, and our inheritance from our earlier lives. That is what we are.

BakerStreet employs a straw man of an argument, hoping to catch his correspondent out. In the terms of his question LW's condition (and by extension mine) is either a consequence of some trauma in the past (in which case our 'sickness' consists in being unable to overcome that trauma); or it is the product of some depraved nature, natural to us but a deviation, a depravity, in relation to the norm for such behaviours - in which case our problem lies in a lack of self-discipline with which to combat and resist this depravity.

He makes a false dichotomy on the basis of his preferred version of what is right, the assumption that what we do is 'wrong', and then waits for us to trap ourselves by responding to the question in those terms. But what we do is not 'wrong', no more than it is 'right'. It's a private matter that has nothing whatever to do with public questions of appropriate behaviour, and still less to do with questions that ought to be settled through criminal law.

His construction of the question in these terms is made explicit in his comments on homosexuality. He refers to the 'many' who think of homosexuality as a mental or emotional problem - whereas in fact it's actually the solution to a variety of mental and emotional problems, just as heterosexuality is another such solution - thus safely insulating himself from accusations of homophobia. But it's he who has framed this question, and framed it in these terms, making a problem out of 'deviant' sexual practices (in this case, S&M, homosexuality, and submissive behaviour) where no such problem exists - except in the minds of the average American sexual neurotic.

In a society of civilized adults sexual matters would be a matter of civility. It's no concern of mine, as a citizen, what gender of person my neighbour most wants sex with. The bedroom only becomes a matter of public concern where criminality is involved - and in all cases of sexual behaviour between consenting adults, no matter what form such behaviour takes, the criminal law should have nothing whatever to say. Private disapproval, on the part of no matter how many, ought not to be the basis of public law applicable to all.

The prurient, obsessive, intrusive fascination with sex displayed in the terrors of the American public (typified by the truly grotesques outcry over Janet Jackson's breast), it's horrors and palpitations over the appearance of 'Brokeback Mountain', is no basis on which to create law that affects all private citizens. It's an attitude of mind that finds its only proper home in the embarrassed, frightened sniggering of children in a schoolyard. Among children it's natural and to be expected. Among adults it's repugnant. And while BakerStreet's comment is adult and civil in one sense, I hear in it, as I often do in news shows, in American advertising, in political 'debate' here, the sniggering of frightened and embarrassed children, too immature to address such questions as they ought to be addressed.

I don't have a problem with my life (nor do I have a problem with yours). LW doesn't have a problem with her life (I leave it to her to say if she has a problem with your life or not).

The only one with a problem here is you.

Comments (Page 2)
7 Pages1 2 3 4  Last
on Feb 20, 2006
To Draginol:

I'm glad I could touch a nerve. And as you ought to know (or perhaps not), arrogance is nothing more than confidence without a smile.

Now, since you've nothing pertinent to say, why don't you go back to using JU to advertise your game?
on Feb 20, 2006
This would make more sense if it were only in the bedroom. But you totally dominate her everywhere, correct? Do you punish her? Sure you do.
on Feb 20, 2006
I think you don't really like or respect women and lw doesn't really like herself.
on Feb 20, 2006
.
He might hurt your wittle feewings some day, and wouldnt that be just awful?


Nah, I just consider the source. The same as I do with you.

And you think that when someone voices their concerns about cross burning, they're actually concerned about the cross. You give the same, tired old bullshit line the Klan always uses. "The cross doesn't actually burn. The cross is wrapped. It's the wrapping that burns. Blah, blah, blah." As if that's the issue. The issue has nothing to do with a symbol of Christianity burning. It has to do with the locations and reasons they're burned, but either you're too much of a stupid racist to understand that, or your attempt to deflect the point is as transparent as....well, I was going to say as transparent as you, but you couldn't be transparent. You're too full of shit. If you don't get it, you're an idiot. If you think everyone is fooled, you're still an idiot. Or maybe I'm the only one smart enough to see through it, because no one else seems to have caught it.
on Feb 20, 2006
What's worse... what they do, and a happy, loving marriage, or them forcing themselves not to do it, and their marriage failing?

I think I'd rather see the happy, loving marriage. Yeah, it is loving. Just because he's satisfying his desires to be an aggressor doesn't me she's not satifying her desire to be the victim.

The cycle of domestic violence has a part in it where the aggressor has to apologize and give gifts in order to win back the victim. I think that is the difference between SM and DV. When it's consented to, there's no reason to apologize. If you are doing things you need to seek forgiveness for, then you are in the wrong, but if not, you're good. At least, that's how I see it. After all, consent is a defense to assault.
on Feb 20, 2006
Ridiculous. What would be the reaction if LW and EoIC indulged not in S&M but in bungee jumping, for instance? Iconoclast might not like the idea, he might not think it sensible, it could well be something he would never, ever want to do it himself, but I doubt he would be making such pathetic attempts at clinical diagnosis, let alone character assassination.

The only difference is that S&M (like homosexuality and all those other things with which Iconoclast has a 'problem') are sexual in nature. He doesn't understand them, so he attacks instead. To my mind, he is the epitome of the 'child' to whom EoIC refers in the title of this thread, kicking out because he doesn't understand why other people don't see the world in exactly the same way that he does.
on Feb 20, 2006
To Draginol:

I'm glad I could touch a nerve. And as you ought to know (or perhaps not), arrogance is nothing more than confidence without a smile.

Now, since you've nothing pertinent to say, why don't you go back to using JU to advertise your game?

I'm not above making blogs or users disappear from public view simply because they got on my nerves.  You can be "confident" about that.

on Feb 20, 2006
Excellent article. Very interesting (and not surprising) responses here. I don't really have anything to add to this, but to note that I really do appreciate the time and effort that was given in writing this.
on Feb 20, 2006
This would make more sense if it were only in the bedroom. But you totally dominate her everywhere, correct? Do you punish her? Sure you do.


It is THEIR choice to participate in these activities. When you begin a relationship with someone, don't you kind of set up "ground rules"? You do this, I'll do that, we'll do this together. EoIC and LW have obviously spent a large amount of time and a great deal of consideration setting up the guidelines of what's okay and what's not in their relationship.

Even if they hadn't, is it any of our business? They are mature, intelligent adults capable of making their own choices about how to run their lives. So who cares what turns their cranks?
on Feb 27, 2006
'I'm not above making blogs or users disappear from public view simply because they got on my nerves.'
Well, I suppose that must come in handy in the absence of anything resembling an argument. Alternatively, if you don't like it you could always just choose not to participate. Otherwise you come across like the kid who takes his ball home and thus kills the game just because his side is losing.
on Feb 27, 2006
" I doubt that Simon will bother to blog here anymore after that remark. It's one thing to dislike the premise of this article and say so, quite another to threaten to remove the user from view simply for getting on one's nerves."


Oh, come on. Of all the people in the WORLD I'd figure EoIC would be the last one that would have been offended by that. Surely all that sadist, 'to the stongest', chaos stuff isn't just stuff you wear on your t-shirts is it?
on Feb 27, 2006
To all:

firstly, my compliments to the Furry Canary; it isn't often anything here makes me laugh aloud -

'I'm not above making blogs or users disappear from public view simply because they got on my nerves.'Well, I suppose that must come in handy in the absence of anything resembling an argument.


and secondly to Jythier, as my wife said - an astute comment.

When it's consented to, there's no reason to apologize. If you are doing things you need to seek forgiveness for, then you are in the wrong, but if not, you're good. At least, that's how I see it. After all, consent is a defense to assault.


And now...

To Draginol:

let me ask you a question. Under what circumstances would you consider it proper for a supplier of goods to address a possible customer as you addressed me? I've been here awhile. I have time, thought, effort, invested here. And yes, despite this display of childishness I am still considering blogging here should the site ever start charging. Though your service of JU had better improve a thousand-fold if you want to keep your current clientele here.

It's tedious being Stardock's poor relation - especially when the CEO of that corporation appears to regard his potential service, from which he intends to profit, as a playground in which he may posture as he sees fit, all the while attempting to intimidate a possible customer.

I doubt that's how you conduct business at Stardock, Brad.

Get the knot out of your panties, quit squalling like a scalded brat, and address the argument. Or stay away, if it freaks you out. Either way, next time you want to stamp your feet and threaten, try remembering that you don't attract customers by trying to bully them.

Oh, and by the way. I like the game}:->
on Feb 27, 2006
To BakerStreet:

Oh, come on. Of all the people in the WORLD I'd figure EoIC would be the last one that would have been offended by that. Surely all that sadist, 'to the stongest', chaos stuff isn't just stuff you wear on your t-shirts is it?


Of course it is.
on Feb 27, 2006

To Draginol:

let me ask you a question. Under what circumstances would you consider it proper for a supplier of goods to address a possible customer as you addressed me? I've been here awhile. I have time, thought, effort, invested here. And yes, despite this display of childishness I am still considering blogging here should the site ever start charging. Though your service of JU had better improve a thousand-fold if you want to keep your current clientele here.

It's tedious being Stardock's poor relation - especially when the CEO of that corporation appears to regard his potential service, from which he intends to profit, as a playground in which he may posture as he sees fit, all the while attempting to intimidate a possible customer.

I doubt that's how you conduct business at Stardock, Brad.

Get the knot out of your panties, quit squalling like a scalded brat, and address the argument. Or stay away, if it freaks you out. Either way, next time you want to stamp your feet and threaten, try remembering that you don't attract customers by trying to bully them.

 

1) Get a life.

2) The stock holder of Stardock is fine with how it's run.

3) You're done.

 

on Feb 27, 2006

I doubt that's how you conduct business at Stardock, Brad.

Joeuser is not business- it's a hobby.  Brad's hobby.  He created this site as his own hobby, if it's not "fun" for him, then why should it exist?

Your participation here does not make you a customer, so don't talk to Brad like it does.  If you purchased a product and discuss that product on that product's site (or on www.stardock.com) then you will be treated as a customer. 

JoeUser doesn't make money.  Even if it were a paid site, it's doubtful that it could pay for itself.  It will never be core to business in the least.

NEVER personally attack Brad on JU.  He has no reason to allow anyone to blog here, so it will not be tolerated.

7 Pages1 2 3 4  Last