"If it's provable we can kill it."
Or, I don't have a problem with my life. You do.
Published on February 19, 2006 By EmperorofIceCream In Misc
"I'm curious, LW. What would you say to people that consider this a co-depenant mental problem? You know that some would say that you just happened to hook up with someone who has a complimentary emotional flaw, right?
Granted, many also call homosexuality a mental or emotional problem. Do you see it as the same kind of thing? Do you think it is just something you are, irrespective of your experiences and mental adjustment, or something that came from how you were treated earlier in life?"

BakerStreet.
BakerStreet posted this in response to a comment made by my wife (LW) on another thread in which she's involved, having to do with submissive behaviour in women. As such things tend to do the discussion there has dipped its toes into the areas of S&M, and 'abuse'.

The reactions are of the usual kind - cries of outrage, shrieks of horror, hysterical accusations (having more to do with the fears and desires of those making the accusations than with anything said in the discussion) involving the defense of rape, and a veritable pantheon of shibboleths, cliches, fears, phobias, guilt, resentment and angst - BakerStreet's comment being possibly the most rational while exemplifying the usual array of American neuroses that surrounds anything to do with sex.

I'm not really concerned with the thread that sparked BakerStreet's comment but with the comment itself (quoted above) - but I thought a little backstory necessary as introduction to the comments I have to make on BakerStreet's ideas.

The first assumption he makes (in common with everyone else) is that a relationship that overtly expresses aspects of domination and servitude is 'problematic'. Like most, he seems not to see that the problem most often is with the observer, not with those actively involved. I've written in several places on here, and in a variety of ways, that such relationships are characteristic of human history (looked at personally - as in the personal is the political - or more 'globally'). I see no problem in our relationship and neither does LW.

BakerStreet postulates where others insist - but what he postulates - co-dependency, childhood abuse, or some more general flaw originating in experience and 'mental adjustment' - is no different, merely less insistent. This is the first area in which his comment is problematic. It takes for granted that its LW and I that have a problem, rather than he himself. A second difficulty is that in his comment BakerStreet proposes a dichotomy between past experience and mental adjustment, and 'sometthing that came from how you were treated earlier in life'.

Consider: what is there in our emotional, sexual, intellectual lives that wasn't formed by our previous experiences and our mental adjustments to it? Put another way, what is there in us that does not come to us from our earlier lives? Of course, to be able to appreciate what my question is asking, you have to take a step back from 'the normal' and see it as something we make, on a day to day basis, as part of the conversation that every society has with itself as to what constitutes it, what defines it.

None of us exists in a vacuum and if we're the products of our own experiences and our mental adjustments to it, we're also a product of the point of time which our lives span, the moment in history that our lives occupy, the intersection of everything we think we are with everything everyone else thinks they are, with everything everyone else thinks we are.

The fact that what we are exists somewhere between what we think and what everyone else thinks (whether in terms of individuals or nations and societies) doesn't mean that as individuals we don't play a role in negotiating that reality with others. And because it's a negotiation reality, normality, is not a factual place we occupy, its a debated and debatable place (in the old sense of a site of battle) that we move through. Some never take up more than one position or employ more than one strategy (those who see 'normality' itself as unproblematic) others occupy many places and employ many strategies.

Myself, I've come to follow desire as a guide, to employ reason as a means to understand what must be done to satisfy desire, and will as the vehicle that carries me toward completion of those goals. Sexually, this modus vivendi translates into S&M, politically (as a philosophy and an understanding, rather than a form of activism) it translates into what I've called civil authoritarianism. Socially it translates into a form of play-acting that conceals what I am from my neighbours and co-workers. If they could see what I am they would not like what I am (since they are typically American in terms of their sexual neuroses and political fears) which, at this point, could only work to my detriment.

I am, you are, the product of your past experience and your mental adjustment to it. Just as BakerStreet is. There is no dichotomy between previous experience and mental adjustment to it, and our inheritance from our earlier lives. That is what we are.

BakerStreet employs a straw man of an argument, hoping to catch his correspondent out. In the terms of his question LW's condition (and by extension mine) is either a consequence of some trauma in the past (in which case our 'sickness' consists in being unable to overcome that trauma); or it is the product of some depraved nature, natural to us but a deviation, a depravity, in relation to the norm for such behaviours - in which case our problem lies in a lack of self-discipline with which to combat and resist this depravity.

He makes a false dichotomy on the basis of his preferred version of what is right, the assumption that what we do is 'wrong', and then waits for us to trap ourselves by responding to the question in those terms. But what we do is not 'wrong', no more than it is 'right'. It's a private matter that has nothing whatever to do with public questions of appropriate behaviour, and still less to do with questions that ought to be settled through criminal law.

His construction of the question in these terms is made explicit in his comments on homosexuality. He refers to the 'many' who think of homosexuality as a mental or emotional problem - whereas in fact it's actually the solution to a variety of mental and emotional problems, just as heterosexuality is another such solution - thus safely insulating himself from accusations of homophobia. But it's he who has framed this question, and framed it in these terms, making a problem out of 'deviant' sexual practices (in this case, S&M, homosexuality, and submissive behaviour) where no such problem exists - except in the minds of the average American sexual neurotic.

In a society of civilized adults sexual matters would be a matter of civility. It's no concern of mine, as a citizen, what gender of person my neighbour most wants sex with. The bedroom only becomes a matter of public concern where criminality is involved - and in all cases of sexual behaviour between consenting adults, no matter what form such behaviour takes, the criminal law should have nothing whatever to say. Private disapproval, on the part of no matter how many, ought not to be the basis of public law applicable to all.

The prurient, obsessive, intrusive fascination with sex displayed in the terrors of the American public (typified by the truly grotesques outcry over Janet Jackson's breast), it's horrors and palpitations over the appearance of 'Brokeback Mountain', is no basis on which to create law that affects all private citizens. It's an attitude of mind that finds its only proper home in the embarrassed, frightened sniggering of children in a schoolyard. Among children it's natural and to be expected. Among adults it's repugnant. And while BakerStreet's comment is adult and civil in one sense, I hear in it, as I often do in news shows, in American advertising, in political 'debate' here, the sniggering of frightened and embarrassed children, too immature to address such questions as they ought to be addressed.

I don't have a problem with my life (nor do I have a problem with yours). LW doesn't have a problem with her life (I leave it to her to say if she has a problem with your life or not).

The only one with a problem here is you.

Comments (Page 6)
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on Mar 02, 2006
A point system was created such that we could find out which articles that I and other Stardock people wrote were of the most interest.

Right, I understand that. But at the same time, I think it is skewed in that...the more popular you are, the more your stuff is seen. The less popular you are (pointwise), the less your stuff is seen. I think one trick that people have done now is that they reply to their own article right away which....OK I dont know what the hell it does, but it gets their article seen more. I think that is chinsy. I hardly have the time to write anything of actual value that I think someone would want to read or reply to...so when I actually do write something...there is a short window in which it can be seen, otherwise, one has to dig around in the forums. While at the same time, we have a select few that almost always have an article on the main page...which brings some mucho points and more views.

Along with that, ....dont take this as an attack or anything...but your articles always appear on the main page. By putting your posts on the main page, that gives you more points and skews it to look like people are interested in your stuff. Not saying your stuff isnt interesting...but...if you want a more...true representation to see where the interest is...you should put articles on the main page that are most viewed from the forums or from the frame on the side of the page.

Of course, I don't know how else it could be done so it would work better for all involved.

Also...I deleted that pretty princess pony remark...not sure why it showed up. After posting, I decided that was too much and took it off....or at least the voices say I did.
on Mar 02, 2006

Along with that, ....dont take this as an attack or anything...but your articles always appear on the main page.

I have to ask you this, Ziggy: If you ran a company and threw a ton of money and effort into a site, wouldn't you use the main page as you see fit?  If this site can't justify its existence at all in the corporate world, why would it remain?  As an employee, I would have a huge morale problem with a site that costs this much just being a "toy" for the CEO.  Stardock is a business.  It has employees.  Those employees have families to feed.  If we did as you suggest, I would have to strongly petition that this site was taken down as it would simply be a resource drain and have no corporate reason to exist at all.

on Mar 02, 2006

lol...and you enjoy it...

No...no I don't.  I have no emotional attachment to this site, so I really don't care.  People tend to think that everyone is as emotionally involved as they are.  The fact is, a whole bunch of us can walk away and not even think about this site or what is going on until we log in again.  "Enjoy"?  Not at all.  It's more a pain in the butt than anything.  It gives me the same feeling that I get when my daughter when she keeps telling me that I'm "mean" because I want her to brush her teeth.

on Mar 02, 2006
If you ran a company and threw a ton of money and effort into a site, wouldn't you use the main page as you see fit?


If I ran a website, I would run that site the way I designed it. I certainly wouldn't start something that wasn't profitable...at least in the long run.

If this site can't justify its existence at all in the corporate world, why would it remain?

Ok, this raises a number of questions. First, who is it trying to justify itself to? Second, how good of a job is it doing if it is losing money?
Thirdly, what is it saying to the corporate world when it is a place for 'blogging for the average joe', but only selected bloggers appear on the main page, along with long threads of that companies products...which is closer to a advertisement than a blog? Its like saying "we are here for everyone...but you, you you, that girl over there, and this short guy will only be seen, and I can write all I want about my nifty little product here." If this site is trying to make an impact, it shouldnt be trying to impress anyone.

I worked at a radio station that was the first of its kind in the country. We did what we did well and soon countless other stations were copying our format and record labels and industry was looking towards us for what we would do next. We were successful because we played what people wanted to hear and our format was geared towards the listener. We looked towards the future and utilized new technologies and applied them towards our strategy. The stations that played what they liked and did what they wanted...soon crashed and burned.

Stardock is a business. It has employees. Those employees have families to feed. If we did as you suggest, I would have to strongly petition that this site was taken down as it would simply be a resource drain and have no corporate reason to exist at all.

Right, it is a business. But this is a spinoff website and its purpose is...from what I can gather...to let people make blogs; but that gets all messed up when you go the main page and its constantly some article by a few people or a thread about games that company is making...especially when that company itself has other specific webpages designed for those very articles. Brad said he writes about games and puts them on galciv2.com or totalgaming.net. If he did, they wouldnt be on here, right?

I go to the main page of cnn.com to read a variety of news articles. They dont have postings on their about their products...at least it doesnt take a large majority of the main page up. I get that.

I go to the main page of espn.com to read about a wide variety of sports articles. They dont have postings of their latest producs either. I get that.

I go to the mainpage of wejustrock.com to listen to a variety of bands from the Christian Rock genre. They have nothing to offer at all. I get that.

I go the mainpage of JU to see articles from a variety of bloggers. Do I seriously get that?

I mean..put a banner on the top of the page or somehwere showing off the products and all that jazz...make a rotating banner...changing every few seconds to showcase products....but when one comes a blogging site...one expects to see others blogs, its kind of pointless to see the same stuff time after time.


Also, figured I would point this out...
It's not a democracy, it's not a service

Because we are not providing a service- we are simply letting you use this site

There is no "service".

TOS? Excuse me? Can you point me to a Terms of Service? you can't. Why? Because there isn't one. We have a terms of Use.


From the TOU:
"Terms of Service"
"Welcome to Stardock's JoeUser.com. Stardock Corporation ("Stardock") provides the JoeUser.com service to you, subject to the following Terms of Service ("TOS"),
"JoeUser.com currently provides users with access to web page hosting services, specifically for JoeUser-powered web pages (the "Service"). Unless explicitly stated otherwise, any new features that augment or enhance the current Service, shall be subject to this TOS. In order to use the Service..."
on Mar 02, 2006
I disagree to a large extent with Baker's idea that if someone (e.g. Marcie) isn't "fitting in" at JoeUser, she should necessarily seek some other website where she's a better fit. Mostly I disagree with it because it makes the implicit assumption that JU is a single, monolithic community. Clearly this is not the case; many sub-communities have formed, many largely independent groups exist. If someone isn't fitting in to one particular group at JoeUser, there are many others that they could become a part of.

At the same time, however, people clearly want to join the "popular crowd". And that's what most of the people in this thread are; featured in the top-10 lists, getting front-page articles, well-known, very active, and easily recognized. If you're not liked (or at least read) by the top people, it is extremely hard to break into that level yourself.

As Ziggy quite correctly points out, Brad often features his own articles on the front page. One very simple reason for this is that Brad features articles that he finds interesting, and things that he chooses to write about are, by definition, interesting to him.

Similarly, since Brad is unquestionably the most popular blogger on the site, people who share certain characteristics with him are going to be the ones to benefit the most from association with him, as readers who are interested in what Brad has to say will find similar value in what these others have to say. These people become the top bloggers.

Sadly, it appears, Ziggy and Marcie do not share the critical characteristics that would allow them to benefit from the "JoeUser Aura", if you will. Thus I find it rather sad and amusing that I see both "Why don't you leave us alone?" and "Why aren't our blogs more popular?" in the sentiments they have expressed here. Whatever level of success or popularity they have achieved in the site as a whole is due almost entirely to those they claim are bedeviling them.

As I see it, then, it is something in their nature, conflicting with the prevalent natures of the most popular JU users, that prevents them from reaching the desired heights on this site. If they sincerely wish to reach those heights, they must either change their nature or change their location.

As an old saying goes, most people, when faced with a choice between changing and proving that they shouldn't have to change, will immediately set out to find the proof.
on Mar 02, 2006
I fucked up. Well, Karma thinks I fucked up.

And I've moved on. I am emotional. And that's how I run.


Another thing which is endemic to human nature is to project our own thoughts, emotions, and values onto those around us, rightly or not. You admit that you are emotional. However, many of the people on this site are not emotionally based to nearly the extent that you are. As a result, you naturally read more emotion into their words than they intended.

I don't believe that you have truly moved on from the incident in question, because you keep feeling that others are referring back to it whenever they post something critical of something you've written. If you had really let go of it, it wouldn't keep occurring to you as something that people keep trying to throw back in your face.

This, by the way, is not intended as a critique, but merely an observation.
on Mar 02, 2006
As Ziggy quite correctly points out, Brad often features his own articles on the front page. One very simple reason for this is that Brad features articles that he finds interesting, and things that he chooses to write about are, by definition, interesting to him.


That is about the only thing Ziggy was correct about. Brad does feature is own articles. Fancy that! It's his site and he features stuff he writes....gasp! Brad has very little time to pick out new stuff to feature. Unlike what Ziggy has claimed, Brad has featured a very wide variety of bloggers. He does tend to lean toward certain bloggers that write well and have well thought out articles. Sometimes he will just feature something because he feels it is thought provoking, amusing or is something that will be of interest to a wide variety of readers.

Ziggy, you are so out of your league trying to give Brad advice on how to run a website. I find it amusing how on one hand you complain about parents givng you advice on teaching and on the other hand you are givng advice about something you obviously have very little knowledge of. Brad knows exactly what he is doing and will continue to do things his way as long as he has his own site. He has a tremendous amount of experience with the communities and running sites.

The sites you tried to make comparisons with are incomparable. JU doesn't claim anyting other than it is a site where you can come and blog without charge and it fulfills that claim. Brad could feature nothing but articles regarding his new products if that is what he felt like doing.
on Mar 02, 2006
"I worked at a radio station that was the first of its kind in the country. We did what we did well and soon countless other stations were copying our format and record labels and industry was looking towards us for what we would do next."


If you'd read what Brad said you'd understand the difference. Your station lived off advertising. You needed listeners, and you needed to please advertisers. JU doesn't, and probably will never make money as it stands now. Thousands of new, perpetually pleased visitors is, frankly, just more money out of Stardock's pocket.

You're making the assumption they WANT JU to please everyone and be a successful business. To me, until they have a method in place to generate revenue from it, I doubt they want millions of people flocking here.


" I disagree to a large extent with Baker's idea that if someone (e.g. Marcie) isn't "fitting in" at JoeUser, she should necessarily seek some other website where she's a better fit. Mostly I disagree with it because it makes the implicit assumption that JU is a single, monolithic community."


It was more of an observation. Marcie feels that people around here have grudges, and these conversations come up every single time one of us bad folks disagree with her. It just seemed to me that if you aren't happy somewhere, is it more logical to ask the place to change, or find a place that meets your needs?

"Whatever level of success or popularity they have achieved in the site as a whole is due almost entirely to those they claim are bedeviling them."


That I disagree with. If Marcy and Ziggy aren't getting play, maybe it is because most of us know better than to post. When I differ with Marcie, it turns into a pity party. I knew better than to utter a word on her 'fired' article, because I knew exactly what my opinion would provoke.

Not everyone is blogging for the same reasons. Marcie admits she isn't interested in politics, etc. You simply can't expect personal blogs to get as much attention as ones intended to provoke discussion on contentious subjects.
on Mar 02, 2006
Marcie, you know I love you, so take this as it's meant and not as a dig at you.

You and Ryan do this over and over and over. You say that you've moved on, but you haven't -YOU are the ones bringing old wounds and grudges to the table here, not anyone else. It's incredibly painful to watch, to be honest. It makes we want to shake the pair of you until your teeth rattle....to make you see what you're doing here. For crying out loud, just stop it. Please. Stop playing the victim - and yes, you ARE both doing that, in your own way. Please, just stop. Move on. Go about your blogging business and let the past be just that - the past. Don't take every comment Karma and Baker and Brad make as attacks - yes, you do that too - and just blog on. You say that you're limiting yourself here - I assume that you're limiting your complaints and digs at Karma, Brad and admin because that's the only thing that would get you confined or exiled. Why do you have to complain? Why do you have to bring every little unfairness to the front? Can't you just do what the rest of us and and just blog on? Can't you let the past go and press on?

Please, stop it. I've about had enough.
on Mar 02, 2006
Please, stop it. I've about had enough.


You can feel free to not read or respond, either. It's your choice.
on Mar 02, 2006
You can feel free to not read or respond, either. It's your choice


That's right. Push it off on me. Make it MY issue, not yours.

I said what I said out of caring, not out of spite. I said it because I think you need to hear it from someone you consider a friend, someone you know cares about you. I had hoped that you wouldn't see it as an attack and would take my words in the spirit they were meant.

I'm not the enemy Marcie. I'm going to keep reading and responding because I'm trying to stop you from self-destructing. You can see that's the path you're heading down, can't you? I'd hate for that to happen and not have tried to avert or abort it.
on Mar 02, 2006
What I find interesting is that this article which made such an upset with Brad is still up here for all to read and comment on.

What I also curious about and find interesting is that Brad says that JU doesnt generate an income.

Isnt JU a wonderful advertising market?

Sure it is free for people to come and blog, but doesnt it attract people from all corners due to the fact that it attracts people reading the articles that people write on here? Therefore generating possible customers to wincustomise or stardock or whatever product they are selling?

Without people like Baker or Dharma or LW or Gid..or whoever blogs on here generating the articles that generate the visits to this site, which I am sure generates customers to the company. The google ads on the sides of everyones blogs also generates income as well, to what extent I am not sure but Im sure there is something. Heck on my blog I am generating a few dollars a month from google ads, imagine the many blogs just on this site all generating the same amount, it all ads up.

Nothing is for free. Somewhere someone is always getting something out of it.
on Mar 02, 2006
What I find interesting is that this article which made such an upset with Brad is still up here for all to read and comment on.


PB, again, it wasn't the article that upset him, it was the nasty comments that ensued. He left it up so others could see how it played out and maybe learn from it.

What I also curious about and find interesting is that Brad says that JU doesnt generate an income.

Isnt JU a wonderful advertising market?


Are you seriously trying to say that JU makes money? You have obviously no idea how much it costs for the bandwidth and man hours it takes to maintain this site. Sure, it's used as a tool to advertise Stardock products. Why else would Brad keep investing in it? If JU ceased to exist it wouldn't cause a blip in Stardock business. Stardock has plenty of other sites that cover product sales.
on Mar 02, 2006
You can feel free to not read or respond, either. It's your choice


That's right. Push it off on me. Make it MY issue, not yours.


I got the exact same response when trying to make a constructive criticism except I gave up. I don't care as much as you do though K. I figure you can't help those who don't figure they need help. Good luck.
on Mar 02, 2006
What it comes down to is you think I should be a certain way and I'm not the way you think I should be. And I'm never going to be what you think I should.

You're adults. I'm an adult. If you don't want to read me, that's fine. If you do, that's fine, too. Go ahead and respond, baker...I can delete your comments if I think it's crap. I've got no problems doing that.

You can give me all the "constructive criticism" you want. I don't have to take it. It's only constructive to you because then you can say that you made a valiant effort to help poor, ignorant Marcie be a better person, a better blogger.

I applaud your effort. Does that make it better for you?
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