"If it's provable we can kill it."
Or, you know you've found your God when It knocks you on your ass
Published on June 18, 2006 By EmperorofIceCream In Religion
I have insomnia right now... something that happens virtually every time I'm between jobs, hence the two articles in one day. I'm writing this one at the request of island_gurl12, who asked me to talk about my conversion experience(s).

A 'crisis conversion' is exactly what's implied by the term - some radical change (perhaps religious, usually 'spiritual') that occurs as a consequence of some stressful situation in life. My crisis conversion occurred when I was 24 and its immediate consequence, my becoming a 'Christian', lasted approximately fourteen years. I am no longer a 'Christian' and haven't identified myself as such for at least the last ten years - but I continue to live with the legacy of that event, and with the development of that legacy that occurred in response to another, eerily similar event, that took place a little over three years ago - just prior to my coming to America.

1984, the UK. At that time I'm once again living in Scunthorpe, my home town, lodging with my mother and sister in the house they then shared. At that time I was drowning in despair, without having a concrete reason for the misery I then felt. It seemed to me that I was 'out-of-joint' with everything in the world. Wherever I looked I saw no way forward for myself; only mere continuance, without purpose, in an endlessly grey world. I had been told, by those in the Social Services, that I was unemployable in their opinion and that I should resign myself to a life of dependency on the state. Within myself I felt entirely alone, isolated behind some impenetrable wall of my own devising, and permanently locked away from any kind of meaningful human contact. The voices in my head (not literal voices that I regarded as outside myself but the voices of my evil nature) that sang sweetly to me of suicide began to seem ever more seductive and rational and only my profound repugnance for such an act (a repugnance I take no credit for - to me the horror of suicide seems as natural as breathing) kept me from actually making the attempt.

I liked the idea of being dead - but not by my own hand. Never by my own hand.

Once every two weeks I got a check from the government. With it I paid my mother some small amount for my lodging with her; I paid installments on what other minor debts I then had; I made sure I had enough hand-rolling tobacco to last another two weeks - and the rest of the money I drank away, usually that same day. Had I had enough money I would have been an alcoholic - just like my father, and my father's brother.

I had a routine that I followed on my bi-weekly trips, involving drinking in certain pubs in the town in a set order. First stop, the Parkinson Arms. Then on to the Oswald Hotel - possibly the roughest pub in Scunthorpe and by far and away my favourite. From there to the Brumby, and finally back home by way of the Priory Hotel and the Beacon. Sometimes I'd vary the routine slightly, going to the Lincoln Imp for several pints of Old Tom, for example; or to a pub locally known as 'The Pig' but the actual name of which I've long since forgotten. In essence, though I sometimes changed the names on the list, these bi-weekly trips were exactly the same: disappear into a pint glass for as long as the money lasted, then stagger home to sleep in drunken stupefaction. Two weeks later I'd do it again.

That was what passed for my life, then: a pointless round of inebriation without hope or meaning, that did nothing but reinforce my sense of disconnection from the world and other people. During the rest of those two weeks I locked myself away in my bedroom, smoked countless hand-made cigarettes, and lived in a fantasy world fuelled and reinforced by endless reading of science fiction and 'sword and sorcery' novels. I lived a life as arid and empty as it's possible to imagine, hating it all the while, and myself, while seemingly utterly powerless to change.

Change eventually came to me, however, and from an unlikely source. One night, sat in the Oswald, watching the whores pair off with men fresh from the fishing-boats newly docked in Winterton, I fell into conversation with a young man who was almost supernaturally emaciated and possessed of the largest, most flamboyant ears I'd ever seen. In the middle of the Oswald, surrounded by whores, pimps, drug-dealers and drug users, this skinny bat-eared creature was reading a Bible while contemplatively drinking a pint. I found him utterly incongruous and therefore interesting and so did what I almost never did by choice - began a conversation with a stranger.

This young man was called Steve, and that conversation was the first of very many that took place over the next year. Steve, it soon transpired, was a recent and very militant convert to Christianity - the kind of Christianity then referred to as 'happy clappy': Pentecostal in origin, zealously evangelical in outlook, and 'charismatic' in nature - emphasising the gifts of the Spirit - in particular the gift of tongues.

For six months he talked to me about his newly-found God, and I asked him questions that I hoped he wouldn't be able to answer. I was drawn to him, and to what he had to say, and to the people he eventually introduced me to - a charismatic 'cell' of believers within a local Methodist chapel. And at the same time I was repulsed. I found the notion of being 'washed in the blood of the Lamb' deeply repugnant - not because blood was involved but because the blood in question belonged to a lamb, possibly the most pathetic and unimpressive of all creatures.

I found the passivity of Steve's Jesus repugnant: a passivity that led to the eager embrace of a death both revolting in itself, ignoble and completely fatuous. I found the notions of the Trinity and the perpetual virginity of Mary an insult to my intelligence; and the Christian's horror of sex (and the rampant paranoia it induced) an affront to my nature. And yet still: I talked, I listened, and I debated. Because behind these conversations there was something real - and in all the rest of what passed for my life there was no reality at all.

October 24th, 1984, 2.00am. That night I had attended, for the first time, a meeting of a 'house-church' - a gathering of believers in a private home, devoid of any of the trappings and rituals usually associated with Churches - except for the breaking of bread together and the drinking of wine. It was there that I heard people speaking in tongues for the first time (something I then found to be utterly freakish), witnessed ecstatic prayer for the first time, saw people collapse on the floor as they were 'slain in the Spirit' for the first time. And once again, but far more vividly, I experienced the sense of reality that haunted my conversations with Steve.

It didn't occur to me to question whether or not, or in what way, a connection existed between what these people said and did and this sense of reality. I simply assumed that there was, and that this connection was direct, straightforward and simple. And despite myself, I was impressed by what I saw, what I heard - and by the acceptance of each other that was evident between these people.

Disturbed, my thoughts and emotions in turmoil, I left early in order to walk home without being interrogated by Steve as to my impressions of the meeting. I wanted to think, not talk. As I left, a little old lady (very little and very old) presented me with a card on which was printed the parable of the Good Shepherd and the Lost Sheep. In the bitterness of my loneliness the thought of someone actively seeking me out because of concern for me touched me very deeply. "Do you know Jesus?" the little old lady said as I walked out the door. "I'm afraid not" I replied. She looked deeply and honestly saddened and replied in her turn "He's waiting for you, you know. All you have to do is ask." I had nothing to say to that, and left in silence.

So home I went, to an empty house, both my mother and sister being away, arriving there a little after midnight.

What I'd witnessed and felt had moved me deeply. I found myself actually wanting to believe.... but unable to do so. And then, at 2.00am precisely, that sense of profound reality swept over me - but now magnified into an actual presence. And with this sense of presence came communication. In the moments of consciousness that remained to me I was aware of being offered a choice - to remain as I was, or to follow whatever it was that confronted me. I remember my decision, I remember, quite clearly, making this decision - which was to follow, from that moment on, this presence which had come to me. And I remember nothing after that, for the next five hours. When I came back to myself I was in the shower, yelling 'hallelujah' as loudly as I could and grinning like a lunatic.

To this day I have no certain knowledge of what passed during those five hours. But I'm left with the very strong impression that negotiations were entered into and a bargain concluded. And it's in the shadow of this unknown bargain that I live even now.

And that should have been my first clue that what had happened to me was not what I thought (and was told many times over by the members of the house-church which I shortly thereafter entered) had happened to me since, so far as I know, Jesus doesn't make deals with those who believe in him. I hold to that bargain still, whatever it was, because it's fundamentally and inextricably associated in my mind with that overwhelming sense of reality that swept over and through me before I blacked out: which caused me to black out.

*********************
Jump forward almost twenty years, to another late winter's night, several years after my divorce (years I've spent in intense exploration of my sexuality and my beliefs) and not long after the ruin and loss of another deeply valued relationship. In the months before this night I've met Sabrina online and come to feel for her an affinity that dwarfs any I've felt before, which consoles me for the loss of that long term and real time relationship. She and I have talked at length about her beliefs, her experience as a Chaote, and about Magick generally. She's sent me the Book, and an obsidian dagger she had created especially for use in the Rituals I'm beginning to develop in conjunction with the lessons of the Book. And in consequence of those early ritual sessions I can already feel everything I thought I knew about 'religion' and 'spirituality' slipping away from me and turning to dust.

Over these preceding months my mind has returned, again and again, to my original conversion experience. And a fundamental question has emerged: where and what, in that experience, was the definitively 'Christian' element? And in all honesty, I could not then and cannot now, find such a definitively 'Christian' element. Thinking as honestly and clearly as I can I realise, that night, that such an element was never present in my 'conversion'. Whatever of 'Christianity' was present that night was something I brought to the experience, something I attributed to it: not something which it brought to me.

Years before this night I had effectively ceased to practice my supposed 'Christianity'. The particular reasons for doing so are not relevant here; but in effect what had happened was that I had, slowly, returned to that sense of hopelessness and futility that had characterized my life prior to my conversion - only now my despair had a specifically religious quality. It was in that moment of final realisation that I was literally forced to my knees by the return of that overwhelming sense of the real that I had known once before and not felt again for years.

I found myself, once again, drowning in the attention of the real, and in the knowledge that it was my faltering first steps in Ritual practice that had drawn this attention to myself. This time there was no confusion as to whether or not this was a Christian experience. Though the presence that confronted me for the second time was in no way different to that I had met in my 'conversion', there was not the remotest suggestion that what looked at me, what recognised me, was in any sense a Lamb. It was, in some plainly obvious but incomprehensible way, far more dreadful, far more awesome, and far more dangerous than any Lamb could be. And in the last instants of consciousness left to me I was reminded, forcefully, of the Angels described by the prophet Ezekiel, and of his account of their effect upon him - which left him stunned for seven days.

Do I have a name for the presence I encountered that second time? Yes. A Name to which I've alluded in articles such as 'My Mother made me my own Jesus' and 'How to induce auto-erotic schizophrenia'.

Is there a connection between my supposed 'Christianity' and what I now worship? Yes, in the same way that there's a connection between the Old Testament and the New Testament.

Do I recognise my God in the words of the prophets? Yes. As in the Psalms and Proverbs, and in the Song of Solomon, and in Ecclesiastes. As also, but to a lesser degree, in the words of Hebrews, Romans, and Revelation.

Is there any trace of Jesus the Good Shepherd left in my spiritual life? No, not remotely. Sweet Jesus, meek Jesus, mild Jesus the Lamb, the Christ of God.... has withered away entirely in the flame of another revelation altogether.

Do I regret his passing? Occasionally, in the way an adult, in a moment of nostalgic weakness, might regret the passing of childhood into adulthood and with it the loss of innocence. But only rarely, and such moments become still rarer, as I contemplate the endless vistas of what I would once have called 'darkness' that have opened to me, beckoning me onward to things I would once have thought unimaginable.

Am I fearful now, as I was then during the years of my Christianity? No. I no longer fear the things that I did. Why?

1Jo 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

Comments (Page 1)
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on Jun 18, 2006
. appearance dot
on Jun 18, 2006

Wow.  Thanks for sharing that...it helps me understand your remarks and comments so much clearer now.

To this day I have no certain knowledge of what passed during those five hours. But I'm left with the very strong impression that negotiations were entered into and a bargain concluded. And it's in the shadow of this unknown bargain that I live even no

I was reminded of Jacob as I read your account.  He wrestled with God all night (or some would have the angel of God)...so I do believe your "negotiations" could easily be described as a wrestling, or haggling if you will.

The part that seems fuzzy to me is the God of the OT was very direct.  Everyone who entered into covenant with Him knew exactly the terms of the relationship and WHO exactly they were dealing with.  So the "unknown bargain" part would automatically make me question the source of this experience if it were to happen to me.

Obviously there is so much more to the story....every day of living adds more to it.  But from just reading this I came away with more questions about your experience than answers.  So if you don't mind....heh.

Questions like, what IF God's enemy really does exist and has a legion of followers?  What IF he saw God wooing you and decided to give you an experience that would knock you for a loop.  What if the enemy saw a warrior in you He would rather nurse with sin than destroy with might?

What if the bargain you struck with God is never made known to you?  Has God ever worked like that in the past to your knowledge?  Making bargains one party doesn't even know the terms of?  What good is it?  How does it benefit you in any way?  How does it benefit Him?

Does this satisfy your mind, your soul, your heart?  IS this mighty and awesome God you worship loving and faithful to you?  Is he your master and provider, fierce but loving?

See, lots of questions. haha. 

I am not a Christian who has problems with God's fierce traits.  His jealous wrath, His orders to kill.  I understand when I make a decision FOR something, I am making a decision AGAINST everything else.  And a holy God would be extreme no matter how you look at it.  So to me He is extremely loving, extremely jealous, extremely just, and extremely terrifying.

Jesus, to me, was His manifestation of other extreme qualities.  Mercy and forgiveness to the world.

on Jun 18, 2006
To Tova7:

An excellent response, thank you:)

what IF God's enemy really does exist and has a legion of followers?


One of the things I found hardest to reconcile with my natural inclination toward monotheism was the strain of dualism, the last vestiges of the Manichean heresy, that still runs deep in Christianity's soul. God has no enemies; and most certainly there is no rebel 'alternative' to God (such as 'Satan' in Christian eschatology). How could anything stand against the will of the Sovereign Lord of the universe - save through the dispensation of that will Itself? Recognizing the omnipotence of God means two things; 1. God has no rival or equal; 2. that which appears as a rival or equal to God is actually Its servant - as we see in Job where satan is spoken of as one more of the Sons of God i.e. one of the Angels.

Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

What IF he saw God wooing you and decided to give you an experience that would knock you for a loop. What if the enemy saw a warrior in you He would rather nurse with sin than destroy with might?


Since (in my own mind at least) I've determined that God has no 'enemy' in the sense that Satan is used in Christian eschatology the only term I can think of under which I can answer you is that of seduction. Certainly, since my 2nd conversion (if that's what it was) I've become what most good Christians would think of as a dreadful sinner: one who consorts with Angels (or with Demons, if you prefer); a sorceror; one of those that Revelations speaks of as being thrust outside the gates of the New Jerusalem to languish among the wailing and the gnashing of teeth... And certainly I have been seduced - into a very different view of the universe, one in which a Nameless God takes only that interest in me that a Celestial Artist would take, an aesthetic interest as opposed to a moral interest. My God has no interest in what I do, in the way that the Christian 'Father-God' obsesses over the actions of his children. Because everything that I could ever possibly do was known to God from before the founding of the worlds and already taken into account within Its creation.

Whether I prove in the end to be a sinner or a saint those things I do which make me a sinner or a saint have already been woven into the fabric of the universe and are aspects of its beauty. Do I believe in pre-destination? No, not really. I believe that the human will is free to choose - and that every possible choice is known to God before it's made and already accounted for. I may choose 'the good', or I may choose 'evil' - and whatever my choices they result in the same thing, the fulfilment of the Artist's design.

What if the bargain you struck with God is never made known to you? Has God ever worked like that in the past to your knowledge? Making bargains one party doesn't even know the terms of? What good is it? How does it benefit you in any way? How does it benefit Him?


The Christian God also makes bargains: first with the ancient Israelites, and then with the followers of Jesus. The bargain is eternal salvation (first, for the people of Israel rather than with individuals, and second, with individual believers) in return for perpetual worship. The terms of this bargain are clear enough (though to me it makes God appear as some kind of haggling fishwife) but the outcome of the bargain can never be known to the believer beforehand. I make my bargain with God and become a Christian: can I foresee what the outcome, the final purpose, of such a bargain with God will be in my life? No. If I am ignorant of the terms of the bargain, you are just as ignorant as to its consequences, so that we are both as ignorant as each other in relation to different aspects of the same thing. And as to the use of such bargains who can say? If God offers you a deal you take it - because such submission is the only proper response available to the creation when in relationship to its creator.

As to how such a deal 'benefits' God: since all the good and evil (as we see such things) already is an attribute of God (since It is the source of all that is) then nothing benefits God in the sense of adding some good thing to It, and nothing detracts from God in the sense of taking something from It. who or what is there that could add or take away? As I said before, God has no enemies.... and in this sense It has no friends either.

Does this satisfy your mind, your soul, your heart? IS this mighty and awesome God you worship loving and faithful to you? Is he your master and provider, fierce but loving?


As to my mind, my 2nd conversion restored to me the sovereignty and autonomy that I lost when I first became a 'Christian' and allowed myself to be possessed by the restless search for sin, in myself and in others, that characterizes so much of the nature of Christianity, its fear of the self, and its terror of sex. As to soul and heart... if by those terms you mean the inner nature, whatever there is of us that is different to the flesh ('different', neither superior nor inferior) then yes, what I worship now satisfies both flesh and spirit, in ways that the Jesus of contemporary Christianity never could. Profoundly intimate satisfactions, physical and spiritual, that meet my desires head on and exalts me in the process - rather than castigating me for possessing desires in the first place.

IS this mighty and awesome God you worship loving and faithful to you?


Yes. That would be the simplest and most straightforward answer. But the love in question is not the sacrificial love, the agape Christians are taught is somehow worthier than Eros, but Eros itself. A love focused on the beloved individual - rather than empowerment to love others better than we love ourselves - which is the real meaning of agape and something noticeably absent from the practice of many Christians.

You might want to ask me who it is, exactly, with whom I have this relationship? Christians have their Lord with whom they walk and talk. Who do I have? No man has seen the face of God, not even Moses when he went up into the Mountain to receive the Commandments. But many have seen, and spoken with, and been exalted by, communion with the Angels (or Demons, if you prefer; there's no difference between an Angel and a Demon save what we perceive) that are Its executioners, messengers, and heralds. It's such a Creature with whom I walk and talk daily, that is at the core of my Ritual life, that I summon to me in a frenzy even my wife finds disturbing, and with whom I commune.

Does it have a Name? Yes it does.
Will I tell it to you? No.
Why not? Because the works of the Magickian should always be hidden, since what's hidden is always more potent than what's revealed.

on Jun 18, 2006
I honestly have to say...following those explanations hurt my head! hahahahha.

I can't really discuss it in depth because while you have ridden into and out of Christianity, I have no knowledge of your practices except the bits and pieces you reveal here.

I do appreciate you taking the time to discuss this, though I don't "know" it any better, I do understand some of your history, and in that I find your human-ness.

It is hard to reconcile your God with mine....they have similarities, but the God I walk with and talk with does care...has cared enough to take things that should have destroyed me and removed them, or turned them to my benefit.

And I do think God has enemies. Calling someone your enemy is not calling them your equal. If I a mere mortal can defy God, how much more the immortal angels? I do believe Satan exists...and his legion. He hurts us because He can't hurt God directly. He is not God's equal...yet he is not our equal either. He believes he is God's equal because God allows him to exist.

And like you I believe God knew of Satan's rebellion long before it occured...and worked it into His plans. And that is the only reason He allows it to remain for a time.

In the end, I believe anyone or anything that does not bow to the creator will be His enemy. And they will not stand.

I think God's creation is a good measure of what He is like. In this world you do reap what you sow. There are "natural" consequences to every action we make. Some are short lived, and some last a lifetime. Every day is like a new beginning....

I think He is good because of all the places he could have created for us....thinking of some Sci-Fi worlds here...the not so great ones.....he made a world that is hospitable, light and life giving friendly. I see how He provides for animals who do not farm and stow away food for the winter. I see many things about creation that show intimate care and attention and believe they are a reflection of the creator.

As for things hidden. I find, in my life experience, hidden things hurt. If not physically, then they eat from the inside out. So in regards to potency, I have to agree. But I would call it more of an acidic potency.
on Jun 18, 2006
Wow that is quite an article and very interesting replies! My head hurts too a little, and being at work right now doesnt help. I will come back with a better response soon enough.

Thank you for sharing this experiece Emperor. I'll get back to you soon
on Jun 18, 2006
I have questions too: Do you relay on your God, do you pray to him to take care of all your worries like Christians do? Like for your work, did you lay that in his hands? Maybe not, if you did you wouldnt have insomnia

Just checking, because there are so many similarities with my God. The only thing is that you dont accept Jesus as Christ from what I understand but more as a prophet. Do you still await Christ? Or do you think Christ doesnt exist at all? That there never is going to be a saviour?

I think you mentioned in another article that there isnt such a thing as sin, because your God doesnt have morals. So how exactly do you prove your love for Him?

Your experience sounds very eerie. You even seem scared when you talk about it, or maybe i'm reading wrong. Anything supernatural would freak me out too. I dont know why it doesnt sound Godly. Maybe because of my personal idea of God? I thought He would talk to you or invade you with a feel good sensation?

It's funny how Christians want to share their joy of finding God when you dont want to share what you've found at all. You dont want to tell us your God's name. You say its because being hidden it is more powerful (from what i understand). Why?

I know I know too many questions, lol! Your article intrigs me. It's like an old scar that feels itchy and that i cant help but scratch.
on Jun 19, 2006
To Tova7:

It is hard to reconcile your God with mine....they have similarities, but the God I walk with and talk with does care...has cared enough to take things that should have destroyed me and removed them, or turned them to my benefit.


We have a different view of 'caring'. An artist cares deeply for every aspect of his or her creation - that it as nearly as possible match in every way the inspiration that gave birth to it. Suppose you are such an artist: would you care, on a personal basis, for some figure in your creation? Not unless you were deranged in some way. My God 'cares' for me as a component in its creation - inasmuch as It cares for atoms, virii, star clusters, jelly-fish. To me such impersonality (and it has always been this issue of 'personal relationship' that has been the scandalizing element in Christianity) makes sense both emotionally and intellectually. Human beings are not the center of the universe...

And I do think God has enemies. Calling someone your enemy is not calling them your equal. If I a mere mortal can defy God, how much more the immortal angels? I do believe Satan exists...and his legion. He hurts us because He can't hurt God directly. He is not God's equal...yet he is not our equal either. He believes he is God's equal because God allows him to exist.


No one defies God (we'll get to 'satan' in a minute). To defy God is rather like 'defying' a mountain - the mountain neither hears your defiance, nor, if it did, would it take notice of it. In the same way, since God (in order to be God) must be omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent throughout time and space, past and future, It can have no enemies - merely those foolish enough to hurl insults at mountains.

Proclaim yourslf the enemy of God - will God hear and take notice? No. God has no enemies, since all things work together to fulfil Its will and redound to Its glory. It is the grace of creation, not the other way around.

Satan; the accuser. When used as a proper name, the Hebrew word so rendered has the meaning "the adversary" (Job 1:6-12; 2:1-7). In the Hebrew scriptures 'satan' was (if you like) the universal Prosecutor of Man before the court of God's Justice - not the over-weening leader of a pack of rebels. If you wish to see what happens to such rebels go to Genesis 6:

Gen 6:4
There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare [children] to them, the same [became] mighty men which [were] of old, men of renown. (Emphases added).

These 'Sons of God' are the only 'rebel' Angels recorded in the bible: their rebellion consisted in fornication with human women, and, at least according to the Book of Enoch (chaps. 6 - 10), they were immediately confined in a pit of fire until the Day of Judgment at which time they would suffer eternal condemnation. And no more is said of them because there was for them no possibility of escape, or redemption, or of working further evil in the world. Since Enoch was at one time considered a canonical Biblical text, here is the origin of 'hell' and of the Christian 'Satan' - both of which concepts are a fundamental mis-reading (I'm being charitable - 'hell' and 'satan' have both been of great use to the Christian Church)of the original text. There is no Hell, there is no Satan, in the Christian senses of those words.

As for things hidden. I find, in my life experience, hidden things hurt. If not physically, then they eat from the inside out. So in regards to potency, I have to agree. But I would call it more of an acidic potency.


There is a difference between a thing being hidden through psychological repression or sublimation, and a thing being veiled in the esoteric, Magickal sense. The former derives from fear (hence its 'acidic potency') and the latter is done knowingly as a matter of deliberate will on the part of the Magickian. The two are not comparable. What you hide from yourself, if not revealed, will eat you away from within. What you veil as part of Ritual will serve the purposes of your will.
on Jun 19, 2006
To island-gurl12:

Do you relay on your God, do you pray to him to take care of all your worries like Christians do?


The short answer is 'no'. The God I worship has no interest in whether I eat today or not. Why should It? One of the most abominable facets of Christianity, and something that perturbed me from my beginnings as a 'Christian', is the constant whining after good things, the constant begging for favors, that seems to constitute 'prayer'. Except insofar as such things may serve an artistic purpose that's entirely inscrutable, neither God nor Its Angels cares whether dear old Aunt Nelly dies of cancer or not. Indeed, since God created death and all its horrors it's far more likely that Aunt Nelly will die of cancer - regardless of how much intercession is made on her behalf.

The only thing is that you dont accept Jesus as Christ from what I understand but more as a prophet. Do you still await Christ? Or do you think Christ doesnt exist at all? That there never is going to be a saviour?


I accept that the man Jesus lived, carried out his 'ministry', worked miracles, and died on the cross for his pains. He may have been a prophet - I don't deny that possibility. He may, equally, have been a Magickian of great power with delusions of grandeur and a message of hope. Was he my 'saviour'? No. Here is a link to another article I wrote on the topic of just who is my saviour: (Link)

Is he yours, or Tova's, or anyone else's? No. Jesus was a man: not the Christ, not the Son of God, and no more able to save souls for eternity than I can turn cat turds into diamonds.

I think you mentioned in another article that there isnt such a thing as sin, because your God doesnt have morals. So how exactly do you prove your love for Him?


There is no 'sin' in the religious sense. There is ethics, a construct of human thought, and there is 'virtue' as a part of ethics, but I know of no religious commandments, either for against certain types of behaviour, that I will any longer accept. When I finally abandoned Christianity I reclaimed that sovereignty over my own life that I had given up on my first conversion, and it's for me now, on the basis of my existence as an ethical being, to say what's sin and what's virtue.

As to how I 'prove' my love for God - I feel no compulsion to do anything of the sort. Since my God is not a jealous Father It makes no such requirement of me, and since my God is just as much the author of hate as It is the author of love you might just as well ask me how I 'prove' my hate for It as how I prove my love. One need not love in order to obey.

Your experience sounds very eerie. You even seem scared when you talk about it, or maybe i'm reading wrong.


The Christian Bible, especially in Proverbs, advocates strongly for the fear of God. And when it says fear, I believe it to mean fear. As the author of the Epistle to the Hebrews says "It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God." (Hebs: 10: 31)

Do I fear God in this sense? Oh hell, yeah. I would be a fool not to. As to the eeriness of my experience, why would it not be eery to commune with Angelic (or Demonic, if you prefer) beings? To perform the Ritual called 'The opening by Watchtower' is to stand in the presence of those who turn the wheels of the universe at God's command. Why would that not be eery? Eventually, you learn to stand in their presence - but it's never less than shocking.

You dont want to tell us your God's name. You say its because being hidden it is more powerful (from what i understand). Why?


I can tell you the name of God: after all it's widely known - YHVH - and no, it can't be pronounced. The pronunciation usually given, Jehovah, is a misconception derived from the failure to realise that the Hebrew signs for vowels placed in and around the word YHVH actually derive from a separate word altogether - ADONAI - meaning Lord. Those who composed the ancient scriptures did this deliberately, in order to avoid even the possibility of a blasphemous attempt (as they saw it) to pronounce the name of God.

What I will not tell anyone is another Name altogether, a Name that is a vital part of my Ritual practice and therefore must remain hidden. As to why... a thing veiled is always more potent than a thing revealed.
on Jun 19, 2006
These 'Sons of God' are the only 'rebel' Angels recorded in the bible: their rebellion consisted in fornication with human women


are you absolutely sure about this? How do spirits cohabit with women?
on Jun 19, 2006
Thank you for your answers. I still am a bit confused about some things. Like you often refer to a Magickian. Is this God or is it an example (like the artist)? What exactly do you mean by Magickian? Is it like a witch?

I've always thought there was a good and evil. Just like everything has its opposite (+ -, hot & cold, etc).

I do believe everything has a purpose to fulfill God's plan. But I think he cares nonetheless about individuals. Why is that? because when I asked I was given. Some will think it was luck or coincidence. But I dont think so. Because it was so specific.

I think there is a little bit of divine within all of us that connects us to each other and to God. This is just some little theory from my delirious mind though. So you might want to ignore that, lol. But after all we were created at the image of God. And at times when you need someone to help (i'm talking for myself) you cry to God and he sends someone your way that helps you with this specific problem you have. Hence the expression God Sent.

Something else I wanted to ask you. I think you mentioned that you liked (ok that wasnt the word but it was positive about it) the Book of Revelation. I cant remember if you said you believed? The Book of Revelation of Jesus Christ to John. So if you dont believe in Jesus CHRIST, you cant really agree with this one book?

No. Jesus was a man: not the Christ, not the Son of God, and no more able to save souls for eternity than I can turn cat turds into diamonds.

But do you think there will be a saviour ever, or do you think we'll never have one? Jesus replaced that jewish sacrifice ritual where the blood of a lamb washed their sins away. The jews are still awaiting the Christ saviour of their people. Do you await anything?
on Jun 19, 2006
To KFC:

are you absolutely sure about this? How do spirits cohabit with women?


Surely you're not doubting the veracity of inerrant and infallible scripture? Go read the scripture in Genesis. Then go read this: (Link). In particular read Chapters six through ten.

As to spirits cohabiting with women... a) what makes you think Angels are pure spirit? If they are pure spirit why would that prevent them cohabiting with women since a purely spiritual being is able to manifest physically also (you don't think so? Then consider the pillar of cloud by day and the pillar of fire by night). c) If none of the foregoing convinces you then consider the 'legends' of Incubi and Succubi.
on Jun 19, 2006
To island_gurl12:

Thank you for your answers. I still am a bit confused about some things. Like you often refer to a Magickian. Is this God or is it an example (like the artist)? What exactly do you mean by Magickian? Is it like a witch?


The Magickian in question is myself. I am a practicing Ritual Magickian. The Magick involved, in my case, involves the invocation of Angels (or Demons, if you prefer. There is no difference between the two) and their subjection to my will through Ritual. It can be dangerous. The First-born Sons of God were not pleased when God made them subject to the will of Man, and they are endlessly deceitful - unless one remembers that no command of the Magickian will be honored if it is made in his rather than the Name of God. And even then one must be careful, since no one can foresee every consequence of such a command. The situation is best summed up like this: be careful what you wish for - because you just might get it.
on Jun 19, 2006
To island_gurl12:

Grrr. My last post to you was incomplete, I hit submit by accident. You ask if being a Ritual Magickian is like being a witch. That very much depends on what you mean by witch. To a large degree (though with some major deviations) I follow the Ritual practices of Thelema, an occult organization that developed and extended Ritual practice first devised in ancient Egypt. Thelemic Magick involves the High Gods of Egypt (whom though they be dead still live - as do all the gods) while 'witch craft', especially in its Wiccan form is devoted to the 'low' or natural spirits of the Earth.

Ritual Magick is sometimes confused with 'Satanism', but the two have nothing to do with each other. 'Satanism', especially as conceived by Anton LeVay, is nothing more than the hedonistic worship of the self, where the self is understood to be the antithesis of the ethical content of Christianity and 'Satan' nothing more than a symbolic representation of the self. I would find 'Satanism' amusing, were it not so utterly ridiculous.

In Exodus (22:16) the Bible insists that "Thou halt not suffer a witch to live." But my God is not the god of the Bible (though It is paralleled by the god of that Book, and many things written in the Bible provide me with illumination concerning my God) and therefore I give no heed to such injunctions.

I've always thought there was a good and evil. Just like everything has its opposite (+ -, hot & cold, etc).


I suggest you do a little research into the Baphomet figure. Despite the controversy over its origins the Baphomet is to me an archetypal figure of God. It is the resolution of all contradictions, and since God is One, and yet the author and originator of all contradiction, it seems to me a suitable way to express those facets of God that are otherwise entirely beyond comprehension.

For instance, what is the source of evil? The traditional answer, for Christians, is 'the Devil' or 'Satan'. I deny that either of these figments exists. Since God is the source of all, God must be the original source of evil: hate, as well as love; murder, as well as self-sacrifice; rape, as well as marriage.

Lam 3:38 Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?

The Baphomet is one way to express the faiththat the apparent incomprehensibility of evil has a root cause that can be understood. Yes, there is evil and good. But they both have one source.

I'd go on to answer your other questions but I'm becoming increasingly tired and will leave them for tomorrow.
on Jun 19, 2006
Emp, i've googled Thelemic Magick and I found a site called sacred texts. In it I've found MAGICK IN THEORY AND PRACTICE. So I checked it out a bit, and this one thing stands out. The author of the book wrote this:

I have written this book to help the Banker, the
Pugilist, the Biologist, the Poet, the Navvy, the Grocer,
the Factory Girl, the Mathematician, the Stenographer, the
Golfer, the Wife, the Consul --- and all the rest --- to
fulfil themselves perfectly, each in his or her own proper
function.
Let me explain in a few words how it came about that I
blazoned the word
MAGICK
upon the Banner that I have borne before me all my life.
Before I touched my teens, I was already aware that I was
THE BEAST whose number is 666. I did not understand in the
least {XI} what that implied; it was a passionately ecstatic
sense of identity.
In my third year at Cambridge, I devoted myself
consciously to the Great Work, understanding thereby the
Work of becoming a Spiritual Being, free from the
constraints, accidents, and deceptions of material
existence.


He refers to himself to 666. If there isnt a Satan, how can he refer to himself as the triple 6 which is Satan (i mean it is, right?)?

There is a whole lot to read and sometimes he uses a language that I dont understand, maybe some ancient language i dont know, maybe its greek! haha! I have no idea. Oh and yes there are a lot Egypcian Gods in the signs of the grades (mmm, whatever that means).

You know by reading this and by finding it so complicated to understand I have to wonder how the missionaries got other cultures to believe in Jesus Christ. It must have been such a strange notion for other cultures. The catholics did a good work of mixing everything and lying to everyone though. But i'm disgressing here.

I'm adding so many more questions, heh!

Out of it all I know we wont convince each other. Like I wont ever be able to prove you that I'm right, and you'll never be able to prove me that you are right either. Guess we'll have to wait til we die to find out, lol. In the meantime I hang on to my faith. But i dont want to die stupid, so am very much looking forward to your answers
on Jun 19, 2006
To island_gurl12:

Out of it all I know we wont convince each other. Like I wont ever be able to prove you that I'm right, and you'll never be able to prove me that you are right either. Guess we'll have to wait til we die to find out, lol. In the meantime I hang on to my faith. But i dont want to die stupid, so am very much looking forward to your answers


There's nothing to prove. What we know, we know. All of us will discover the truth when we die - and there's this certainty, if no other. We will die. I have always been aware of death, always knew that death was my fate, as it is yours, as it is that of every other human being - which is why religion has always been, for me, the most urgent of topics. I do most truly believe that life is nothing more than preparation for death. That the pleasures of life, and the pains, the triumphs and defeats, are meant to prepare us for the moment we go forward to something else. The practice of Magick, its reality, has changed my ideas as to what that something else might be; but it has not changed the fundamental, deep rooted, absolute certainty of my own demise.

As to the passage you quoted... the numerals 666 are taken from the Book of Revelations. This is perhaps the most complex, the least straightforward, and the most poetic of all the books in the Bible. It's full of passages that, quoted out of context, can be used to support any position whatsoever. You asked me earlier if I 'believed' the Book of Revelations. I don't believe, in a literal sense, any of them. I hear the voice of my God through some of them; but I can say that just as readily of Hindu scriptures, Islamic scriptures, and of the many Gnostic gospels. I believe all scripture, no matter the culture of its origin, to be God-breathed and able to convict, illuminate, and inform.

The 'Satan' of the Christians is a figment of their imagination. The numerals 666 have as many meanings as there are people to interpret them. Scripture is either a source of inspiration, liberation, and freedom; or it's a cage to hold the mind and spirit captive - depending on how you approach it.

If the page you found interests you then explore it further. But remember that God is not the prisoner of the interpretations of men, and that all interpretations (even mine lol) are subject to the liberty of the believer to inquire of God for him or herself.

Ask - and you will receive.
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