"If it's provable we can kill it."
Or, you know you've found your God when It knocks you on your ass
Published on June 18, 2006 By EmperorofIceCream In Religion
I have insomnia right now... something that happens virtually every time I'm between jobs, hence the two articles in one day. I'm writing this one at the request of island_gurl12, who asked me to talk about my conversion experience(s).

A 'crisis conversion' is exactly what's implied by the term - some radical change (perhaps religious, usually 'spiritual') that occurs as a consequence of some stressful situation in life. My crisis conversion occurred when I was 24 and its immediate consequence, my becoming a 'Christian', lasted approximately fourteen years. I am no longer a 'Christian' and haven't identified myself as such for at least the last ten years - but I continue to live with the legacy of that event, and with the development of that legacy that occurred in response to another, eerily similar event, that took place a little over three years ago - just prior to my coming to America.

1984, the UK. At that time I'm once again living in Scunthorpe, my home town, lodging with my mother and sister in the house they then shared. At that time I was drowning in despair, without having a concrete reason for the misery I then felt. It seemed to me that I was 'out-of-joint' with everything in the world. Wherever I looked I saw no way forward for myself; only mere continuance, without purpose, in an endlessly grey world. I had been told, by those in the Social Services, that I was unemployable in their opinion and that I should resign myself to a life of dependency on the state. Within myself I felt entirely alone, isolated behind some impenetrable wall of my own devising, and permanently locked away from any kind of meaningful human contact. The voices in my head (not literal voices that I regarded as outside myself but the voices of my evil nature) that sang sweetly to me of suicide began to seem ever more seductive and rational and only my profound repugnance for such an act (a repugnance I take no credit for - to me the horror of suicide seems as natural as breathing) kept me from actually making the attempt.

I liked the idea of being dead - but not by my own hand. Never by my own hand.

Once every two weeks I got a check from the government. With it I paid my mother some small amount for my lodging with her; I paid installments on what other minor debts I then had; I made sure I had enough hand-rolling tobacco to last another two weeks - and the rest of the money I drank away, usually that same day. Had I had enough money I would have been an alcoholic - just like my father, and my father's brother.

I had a routine that I followed on my bi-weekly trips, involving drinking in certain pubs in the town in a set order. First stop, the Parkinson Arms. Then on to the Oswald Hotel - possibly the roughest pub in Scunthorpe and by far and away my favourite. From there to the Brumby, and finally back home by way of the Priory Hotel and the Beacon. Sometimes I'd vary the routine slightly, going to the Lincoln Imp for several pints of Old Tom, for example; or to a pub locally known as 'The Pig' but the actual name of which I've long since forgotten. In essence, though I sometimes changed the names on the list, these bi-weekly trips were exactly the same: disappear into a pint glass for as long as the money lasted, then stagger home to sleep in drunken stupefaction. Two weeks later I'd do it again.

That was what passed for my life, then: a pointless round of inebriation without hope or meaning, that did nothing but reinforce my sense of disconnection from the world and other people. During the rest of those two weeks I locked myself away in my bedroom, smoked countless hand-made cigarettes, and lived in a fantasy world fuelled and reinforced by endless reading of science fiction and 'sword and sorcery' novels. I lived a life as arid and empty as it's possible to imagine, hating it all the while, and myself, while seemingly utterly powerless to change.

Change eventually came to me, however, and from an unlikely source. One night, sat in the Oswald, watching the whores pair off with men fresh from the fishing-boats newly docked in Winterton, I fell into conversation with a young man who was almost supernaturally emaciated and possessed of the largest, most flamboyant ears I'd ever seen. In the middle of the Oswald, surrounded by whores, pimps, drug-dealers and drug users, this skinny bat-eared creature was reading a Bible while contemplatively drinking a pint. I found him utterly incongruous and therefore interesting and so did what I almost never did by choice - began a conversation with a stranger.

This young man was called Steve, and that conversation was the first of very many that took place over the next year. Steve, it soon transpired, was a recent and very militant convert to Christianity - the kind of Christianity then referred to as 'happy clappy': Pentecostal in origin, zealously evangelical in outlook, and 'charismatic' in nature - emphasising the gifts of the Spirit - in particular the gift of tongues.

For six months he talked to me about his newly-found God, and I asked him questions that I hoped he wouldn't be able to answer. I was drawn to him, and to what he had to say, and to the people he eventually introduced me to - a charismatic 'cell' of believers within a local Methodist chapel. And at the same time I was repulsed. I found the notion of being 'washed in the blood of the Lamb' deeply repugnant - not because blood was involved but because the blood in question belonged to a lamb, possibly the most pathetic and unimpressive of all creatures.

I found the passivity of Steve's Jesus repugnant: a passivity that led to the eager embrace of a death both revolting in itself, ignoble and completely fatuous. I found the notions of the Trinity and the perpetual virginity of Mary an insult to my intelligence; and the Christian's horror of sex (and the rampant paranoia it induced) an affront to my nature. And yet still: I talked, I listened, and I debated. Because behind these conversations there was something real - and in all the rest of what passed for my life there was no reality at all.

October 24th, 1984, 2.00am. That night I had attended, for the first time, a meeting of a 'house-church' - a gathering of believers in a private home, devoid of any of the trappings and rituals usually associated with Churches - except for the breaking of bread together and the drinking of wine. It was there that I heard people speaking in tongues for the first time (something I then found to be utterly freakish), witnessed ecstatic prayer for the first time, saw people collapse on the floor as they were 'slain in the Spirit' for the first time. And once again, but far more vividly, I experienced the sense of reality that haunted my conversations with Steve.

It didn't occur to me to question whether or not, or in what way, a connection existed between what these people said and did and this sense of reality. I simply assumed that there was, and that this connection was direct, straightforward and simple. And despite myself, I was impressed by what I saw, what I heard - and by the acceptance of each other that was evident between these people.

Disturbed, my thoughts and emotions in turmoil, I left early in order to walk home without being interrogated by Steve as to my impressions of the meeting. I wanted to think, not talk. As I left, a little old lady (very little and very old) presented me with a card on which was printed the parable of the Good Shepherd and the Lost Sheep. In the bitterness of my loneliness the thought of someone actively seeking me out because of concern for me touched me very deeply. "Do you know Jesus?" the little old lady said as I walked out the door. "I'm afraid not" I replied. She looked deeply and honestly saddened and replied in her turn "He's waiting for you, you know. All you have to do is ask." I had nothing to say to that, and left in silence.

So home I went, to an empty house, both my mother and sister being away, arriving there a little after midnight.

What I'd witnessed and felt had moved me deeply. I found myself actually wanting to believe.... but unable to do so. And then, at 2.00am precisely, that sense of profound reality swept over me - but now magnified into an actual presence. And with this sense of presence came communication. In the moments of consciousness that remained to me I was aware of being offered a choice - to remain as I was, or to follow whatever it was that confronted me. I remember my decision, I remember, quite clearly, making this decision - which was to follow, from that moment on, this presence which had come to me. And I remember nothing after that, for the next five hours. When I came back to myself I was in the shower, yelling 'hallelujah' as loudly as I could and grinning like a lunatic.

To this day I have no certain knowledge of what passed during those five hours. But I'm left with the very strong impression that negotiations were entered into and a bargain concluded. And it's in the shadow of this unknown bargain that I live even now.

And that should have been my first clue that what had happened to me was not what I thought (and was told many times over by the members of the house-church which I shortly thereafter entered) had happened to me since, so far as I know, Jesus doesn't make deals with those who believe in him. I hold to that bargain still, whatever it was, because it's fundamentally and inextricably associated in my mind with that overwhelming sense of reality that swept over and through me before I blacked out: which caused me to black out.

*********************
Jump forward almost twenty years, to another late winter's night, several years after my divorce (years I've spent in intense exploration of my sexuality and my beliefs) and not long after the ruin and loss of another deeply valued relationship. In the months before this night I've met Sabrina online and come to feel for her an affinity that dwarfs any I've felt before, which consoles me for the loss of that long term and real time relationship. She and I have talked at length about her beliefs, her experience as a Chaote, and about Magick generally. She's sent me the Book, and an obsidian dagger she had created especially for use in the Rituals I'm beginning to develop in conjunction with the lessons of the Book. And in consequence of those early ritual sessions I can already feel everything I thought I knew about 'religion' and 'spirituality' slipping away from me and turning to dust.

Over these preceding months my mind has returned, again and again, to my original conversion experience. And a fundamental question has emerged: where and what, in that experience, was the definitively 'Christian' element? And in all honesty, I could not then and cannot now, find such a definitively 'Christian' element. Thinking as honestly and clearly as I can I realise, that night, that such an element was never present in my 'conversion'. Whatever of 'Christianity' was present that night was something I brought to the experience, something I attributed to it: not something which it brought to me.

Years before this night I had effectively ceased to practice my supposed 'Christianity'. The particular reasons for doing so are not relevant here; but in effect what had happened was that I had, slowly, returned to that sense of hopelessness and futility that had characterized my life prior to my conversion - only now my despair had a specifically religious quality. It was in that moment of final realisation that I was literally forced to my knees by the return of that overwhelming sense of the real that I had known once before and not felt again for years.

I found myself, once again, drowning in the attention of the real, and in the knowledge that it was my faltering first steps in Ritual practice that had drawn this attention to myself. This time there was no confusion as to whether or not this was a Christian experience. Though the presence that confronted me for the second time was in no way different to that I had met in my 'conversion', there was not the remotest suggestion that what looked at me, what recognised me, was in any sense a Lamb. It was, in some plainly obvious but incomprehensible way, far more dreadful, far more awesome, and far more dangerous than any Lamb could be. And in the last instants of consciousness left to me I was reminded, forcefully, of the Angels described by the prophet Ezekiel, and of his account of their effect upon him - which left him stunned for seven days.

Do I have a name for the presence I encountered that second time? Yes. A Name to which I've alluded in articles such as 'My Mother made me my own Jesus' and 'How to induce auto-erotic schizophrenia'.

Is there a connection between my supposed 'Christianity' and what I now worship? Yes, in the same way that there's a connection between the Old Testament and the New Testament.

Do I recognise my God in the words of the prophets? Yes. As in the Psalms and Proverbs, and in the Song of Solomon, and in Ecclesiastes. As also, but to a lesser degree, in the words of Hebrews, Romans, and Revelation.

Is there any trace of Jesus the Good Shepherd left in my spiritual life? No, not remotely. Sweet Jesus, meek Jesus, mild Jesus the Lamb, the Christ of God.... has withered away entirely in the flame of another revelation altogether.

Do I regret his passing? Occasionally, in the way an adult, in a moment of nostalgic weakness, might regret the passing of childhood into adulthood and with it the loss of innocence. But only rarely, and such moments become still rarer, as I contemplate the endless vistas of what I would once have called 'darkness' that have opened to me, beckoning me onward to things I would once have thought unimaginable.

Am I fearful now, as I was then during the years of my Christianity? No. I no longer fear the things that I did. Why?

1Jo 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

Comments (Page 2)
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on Jun 20, 2006
Not everyone would find this world so 'hospitable, light and life giving friendly' Tova. If you had the bad luck of being shot out of the womb in a place like...say, ethiopia, would you find this world so hospitable?


These places were not always the desolate pieces of land they are right now.

God made this world to support life....plenty of life....what we do with it, how we horde it, is on us. There is no excuse for Ethiopians to be starving..there is plenty of land, plenty food to be had if it were a priority. But they can't just up and leave can they? The reasons they can't migrate like the animals to more fertile ground is political...God didn't make that.

It's like if I give someone $200 for groceries and they choose to buy new shoes...they can't then say "Well you aren't a very good provider! And their kids can't blame me either when they are born into a house with no food but a great pair of shoes."

Earth is beautifully and practically made...I am in awe at the splendor in nature God displays for us....He has provided...why would he bother with the details if he doesn't care?
on Jun 20, 2006
Surely you're not doubting the veracity of inerrant and infallible scripture? Go read the scripture in Genesis. Then go read this: (Link). In particular read Chapters six through ten.


no I'm not doubting at all. You are going outside of inerrant infallible scripture to make your point. I want you to make your point using just the canonical scripture.

In particular look at Gen 6:3 God says:

"My spirit shall not always strive with man....." if they were demons that were mentioned in v1-2 why did God say "man" in v3?

Actually there are 4 different views here on who the "sons" of God were. Your take is one of those views. I'm just saying we can't be dogmatic here on this.

what makes you think Angels are pure spirit? If they are pure spirit why would that prevent them cohabiting with women since a purely spiritual being is able to manifest physically also (you don't think so?


well I'd go back to what Christ said in Matt 22:30 and Mark 12:25

"For in the resurrection they (man) neither marry nor re given in marriage but are as the angels in heaven."

Christ's argument here is there is no married state in heaven. Resurrected saints will be as angels who do not produce offspring. There will be no conjugal union nor reproduction of children as has always been true of angels.

You are taking one obscure verse in Genesis and building a doctrine around it.
on Jun 20, 2006

You know by reading this and by finding it so complicated to understand I have to wonder how the missionaries got other cultures to believe in Jesus Christ


I think for one it was the love of God and the other it was so simple in comparisons to all the other religions or practices out there. No X,Y & Z but only "Believe and follow me." That's it.

Guess we'll have to wait til we die to find out, lol. In the meantime I hang on to my faith.


You're doing a great job Island gurl.....but you don't have to really "hang on" he's hanging onto to you!! You just have to rest in the palm of his hand. Sort of like Noah. He and his family weren't hanging on to the outside of the boat on 8 little pegs for dear life . No he and his family were resting and waiting inside until it was all over.

I have a bumper sticker that says...."Hell is truth seen too late." I believe it to be true.
on Jun 20, 2006
To KFC:

no I'm not doubting at all. You are going outside of inerrant infallible scripture to make your point. I want you to make your point using just the canonical scripture.


Oh I'm sure you do. But I see no reason to limit myself to the turgid and self-serving arguments of 'Christians' such as yourself, with your witless terrors and anile insistence that only your Book has any truths to tell. Enoch (or Henoch) was widely accepted as a canonical text until the fourth century, when it mysteriously 'fell out of favor'. It's interesting to note that, in a comment made to my wife, you mention the fact that there is no such thing as a 'lost' gospel... but now you insist that ony the books of your favored canon are to be accepted.

Go practice your doublethink elsewhere, 'Christian'. On this blog, no one has to follow your rules.

Now, back to the point. A quote from the Catholic Encyclopedia (Oh my... are Catholic thinkers allowed in your hothouse little world? Surprise me... say yes):

"The antediluvian patriarch Henoch according to Genesis "walked with God and was seen no more, because God took him". This walking with God was naturally understood to refer to special revelations made to the patriarch, and this, together with the mystery surrounding his departure from the world, made Henoch's name an apt one for the purposes of apocalyptic writers. In consequence there arose a literature attributed to him.
It influenced not only later Jewish apocrypha, but has left its imprint on the New Testament and the works of the early Fathers. The canonical Epistle of St. Jude, in verses 14, 15, explicitly quotes from the Book of Henoch; the citation is found in the Ethiopic version in verses 9 and 4 of the first chapter. There are probable traces of the Henoch literature in other portions of the New Testament.
Passing to the patristic writers, the Book of Henoch enjoyed a high esteem among them, mainly owing to the quotation in Jude. The so-called Epistle of Barnabas twice cites Henoch as Scripture. Clement of Alexandria, Tertullian, Origen, and even St. Augustine suppose the work to be a genuine one of the patriarch. But in the fourth century the Henoch writings lost credit and ceased to be quoted. After an allusion by an author of the beginning of the ninth century, they disappear from view.
Emphasis added. (Link)

if they were demons that were mentioned in v1-2 why did God say "man" in v3?


No one mentioned demons at all - except you. The Genesis text reads 'Sons of God', the text in Enoch 6-10 specifically says Angels, and throughout the Book of Job (or is that not canonical enough for you, being the OT?) the phrase 'Sons of God' is used to refer, specifically, to Angels. In particular Gen 6:2; Gen 6:4; Job 1:6; Job 2:1; and Job 38:7. As to your quibble over the word 'man', it ought to be obvious even to one such as you, busy as you are corrupting the scriptures to suit your own terrors, that two seperate objects are being discussed - and only one of them is 'man'.

And one more thing, 'Christian': the Gospel text you cite specifically states 'in Heaven' - no mention of what the Sons of God might get up to here on Earth. And it's here on Earth that the Sons of God committed the sin for which they were punished. Was it only absent-mindedness that led you to that convenient ommission?

Christ's argument here is there is no married state in heaven. Resurrected saints will be as angels who do not produce offspring. There will be no conjugal union nor reproduction of children as has always been true of angels.


Dear me. Are you so far removed from the world that you think sex only occurs in marriage? No, Angels don't marry. Neither do many men and women. Are you foolish enough to imagine these men and women don't have sex? And why would Angels need offspring? So far as I can tell, they are generated directly from the will of God. Or, again, are you so foolish as to imagine that in order to create Angels God had to marry someone and have sex with her before the different varieties of Angels could be manifested?

You are taking one obscure verse in Genesis and building a doctrine around it.


Really? I suggest you go read your Bible a little more thoroughly and become acquainted with something other than the Gospels and the Epistles. And if you are going to debate with me, little 'Christian', try to do so on a level that is more elevated than sniggering in a schoolyard.
on Jun 20, 2006
To KFC:

I think for one it was the love of God and the other it was so simple in comparisons to all the other religions or practices out there. No X,Y & Z but only "Believe and follow me." That's it.


No X, Y & Z hmm? Presumably, then, you are unaware of catechism, the learning of the Nicene Creed, the Ritual of Baptism, the Ritual of Confession, the perpetual (and far more abominable) interrogations of believers by their fellow-congregants that occur within churches of the Pentecostal tradition? You must also be unaware of the Altar Call in the Evangelical tradition; the Ritual of Speaking in Tongues in the Pentecostal tradition; the practice of Spirit-led worship in the Quaker tradition? The obligation to attend Mass and Confession; the necessity for Penance; the necessity for Last Rites. No X, Y& Z here, right?

But I forget. The only truly valid 'Christian' tradition is your own, right? None of the rest of them are 'real' Christians at all - and its your word alone that makes these Ritual practices (established for close to 2000 years among Catholics) invalid and irrelevant.

My... how your Jesus must love your pride and arrogance.

I have a bumper sticker that says...."Hell is truth seen too late." I believe it to be true.


Except in relation to yourself, of course.
on Jun 20, 2006
To little-whip:

That's always been among my favorite poems of yours

born of virgins, born of wind, the Bornless One reborn again,the possibilities astound.....and this stinking world goes round and round.


And those my favourite lines within it. And thank you for the congratulations.
on Jun 20, 2006
I tried to read more, and the more I read the more it sounded like Chinese you know. There is even a whole article about the story of Atlantis, and it is really complicated to read. Even with a rested mind. I'm sure even if it was in French I wouldnt understand better heh!

There are also a lot of rituals well explained. (There even is one with two cakes!!! how cool is that!! We get to eat the cakes, but we also have to cut ourselves, err no thanks...). But they dont say what it happens after you do the ritual. I mean the ritual has a name, like The Phoenix or such. Then they explain it. But they dont explain the result, so it's quite frustrating.

Also I've read that the Magick is a lot like Science. And that it should be mastered carefully, so just look out you dont create an atomic bomb ok?

A lot of things ressemble the tribal practices in my native country, Vanuatu. Maybe what you call rituals is what we call "custom", but only a few use it. And once you start using it, it can turn on you. Like once you've used it to kill someone you have to keep killing to feed it, because otherwize it'll kill you. These are things that I believe, I've seen some really weird things happen, but that I believe are from Satan. It is evil. You can sense evil like you can sense purity when you enter a place.

That is why I talked about opposites. And you make a point when you say that it all comes from God. I think he was kind enough to give us a choice. All of us including the angels. And it's all made to fulfill his plan. Maybe to simple an explanation, but my mind is too small to understand it all. And besides, I dont need no explanation, i just need to believe. Wish I could understand though, LOL!! Human nature
on Jun 20, 2006
My last comment is all over the place, sorry!!
on Jun 20, 2006
No X, Y & Z hmm? Presumably, then, you are unaware of catechism, the learning of the Nicene Creed, the Ritual of Baptism, the Ritual of Confession, the perpetual (and far more abominable) interrogations of believers by their fellow-congregants that occur within churches of the Pentecostal tradition? You must also be unaware of the Altar Call in the Evangelical tradition; the Ritual of Speaking in Tongues in the Pentecostal tradition; the practice of Spirit-led worship in the Quaker tradition? The obligation to attend Mass and Confession; the necessity for Penance; the necessity for Last Rites. No X, Y& Z here, right?


none of what you mentioned here are instrumental to one's salvation. Not one. You are talking man made traditions. Jesus had alot to say about traditions.

Now having said that...I'm not against traditions as long as they don't violate what scripture has revealed to us. Some of the above do fall in that category. There is NO altar call in scripture. You won't find it there. And I do consider myself evangelical....btw.

So the answer to your last question? NOPE. The same as I wrote before. No X,Y & Z.

on Jun 20, 2006
My... how your Jesus must love your pride and arrogance.


Except in relation to yourself, of course.


don't be so rude!!! Remember you're the one with the tee shirt.
on Jun 20, 2006
To KFC:

none of what you mentioned here are instrumental to one's salvation. Not one. You are talking man made traditions. Jesus had alot to say about traditions.


I think you'll find that everyone from John the Baptist on has asserted that Baptism is necessary for salvation. Or is that something else you were unaware of? The traditions you presume to criticise, especially in relation to Catholicism, have been developed by people of faith, urgently seeking the guidance of the Holy Spirit, for very nearly 2000 years. And yet, out of the immense depth of your utter folly, you presume to dismiss them because they do not conform to the narrow bigotry of your definition of what it is to be a Christian. I begin to find you deeply offensive.

Over the course of these exchanges it's become apparent to me that you are woefully, deplorably, ignorant - both in relation to the contents of the Bible, and in relation to the most basic tenets of the theology of your faith. You know nothing. You understand nothing. And yet you presume to teach others.

And in that you are like almost every other 'Christian' I have ever met.

on Jun 20, 2006
To island_gurl12:

I'd like to suggest that you don't place too much faith in the works of Aleister Crowley. He fell too deeply in love with a myth of himself, which he himself had created, for him to be a reliable guide. Instead, consult the book and author my wife told you of. That has been to me a constantly reliable guide in these things and a source of inspiration. I disagree with the author's moralising tone, but he's undoubtedly exceptionally skilled in both describing and elucidating Ritual - far more so than the self-aggrandizing works of Crowley.

A lot of things ressemble the tribal practices in my native country, Vanuatu. Maybe what you call rituals is what we call "custom", but only a few use it. And once you start using it, it can turn on you. Like once you've used it to kill someone you have to keep killing to feed it, because otherwize it'll kill you. These are things that I believe, I've seen some really weird things happen, but that I believe are from Satan. It is evil. You can sense evil like you can sense purity when you enter a place.


Magick has no morality, and the uses to which it can be put can be dreadful, and have dreadful consequences for the Magickian who makes use of it for evil ends. But that's the choice of the individual Magickian - there is no necessity that evil should be worked.

As for the appetites and proclivities of the Entities invoked... I will say to you what I have said to others. Be careful what you wake - lest you be unable to make it sleep again.
on Jun 21, 2006
I think you'll find that everyone from John the Baptist on has asserted that Baptism is necessary for salvation


Water Baptism saves no one. John the Baptist did not say that his baptism saves anyone. In that case, the thief on the cross did not enter the kindgom of Heaven as Christ promised he would. No there is nothing WE do that saves us. It's not about us. We do not save ourselves. While I don't believe in x,y & z...I do believe in the simple A,B,C. Admit, believe, confess. That's it. That's all Christ spoke of in regards to salvation.

And I do wonder why you totally ignored every bit of that response in favor of being a smart ass. Could you explain that to me, please?


I can't respond to every single point LW without monopolizing the thread. And I did respond but maybe not to your liking?

Over the course of these exchanges it's become apparent to me that you are woefully, deplorably, ignorant - both in relation to the contents of the Bible, and in relation to the most basic tenets of the theology of your faith


Would you like to give me a bit more here on this? Where am I missing the mark in your estimation? Instead of going after my character, give me something I can answer you on not something so vague as the above statement.

Show me where in scripture requirement for salvation is based on tradition or rituals. Show me where the necessity of altar calls, penance, and speaking in tongues come from. Show me.

Where in the world do you get last rites from? The CC? Ok now show me where they got that from scripture.
on Jun 21, 2006
To KFC:

Water Baptism saves no one. John the Baptist did not say that his baptism saves anyone.


In all honesty, you appear to me to be some sort of bizarre theological masochist... Have you not yet had enough of being beaten about the head and shoulders with the same rod you use to belabor others? Evidently not.

The first Baptism, also known as the Baptism of John, was given for the remission of sin. Baptism itself is the outward, and therefore necessary, sign to the world of repentance and transformation. But the true point to take note of is that without Baptism there is no remission of sin - and that therefore there can be no salvation without it, since salvation is, entirely and completely, the remission of and the blotting out of, the guilty verdict which, according to Christianity, is the fate of all men from Adam onwards.

In all truth, it astounds me that I have to teach you these things, 'Christian'. I had thought that even the most nonsensically liberal of churches would be sure that their congregations were aware of these simple fundamentals. But then I ought not to complain - even the tentmaker was faced with the same task.

1Cr 3:2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able [to bear it], neither yet now are ye able.

Hbr 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which [be] the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

You disappoint not only me, but the God you profess to worship, since you worship in ignorance, pride and vanity. However, on with the lesson.

Act 19:1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,

Act 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

Act 19:3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.

Act 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. Emphasis in italics added.

Act 19:5 When they heard [this], they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Act 19:6 And when Paul had laid [his] hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

Is this testimony, taken from the Book you profess to believe in, not enough to demonstrate that there is no grace, that there is no charism of the Spirit, without there being first of all Baptism in water? Probably not, so...

Mar 1:4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

Act 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

1Pe 3:21 The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

I imagine that by now even you are beginning to get the gist. There is no remission of sin without Baptism, no charism of the Holy Spirit, no likeness of Jesus Christ in the unbaptized and... no salvation. Not only is this so, but baptism is something the believer must do, he or she must take the initiative and seek it out. Because, you unmitigated and intolerable fool, salvation is by the grace of Christ attested to both by the believers faith and by his works - first among which and cardinal to them all is baptism.

If you are one of those contemporary 'Christians' who believes baptism in water to be unnecessary, as your quoted words appear to attest, then by the simplest tenets of your own faith you walk on the edge of hell and are unsaved - 'Christian'.

As to the rest of your nonsense concerning the necessity of Christian ritual to salvation, my comments were not addressed to that point at all but to the simple-minded notion that there is no complexity in Christianity, and were designed to demonstrate that in many Christian practices there is a great abundance of complexity - in some cases rivalling that of the practice of Ritual Magick. And once again, the point proved too difficult for you to grasp.

Cease to teach others, thou fool, go home and learn some of the basics of your faith - and if you haven't already, get baptized. And then, perhaps, you will be able to call yourself a Christian.
on Jun 21, 2006
First of all you still have not shown me where John advocated baptism for SALVATION.

Second. There is a difference between water baptism and spiritual baptism. One is very necessary the other is not but is only an act of obedience.

Water baptism is only the outward show of what went on inside. You picked one verse the Pentecostals like by the way and I did notice. So I suppose you are familiar with that group?



Eph 2:8-9 about says it all.....

2 Peter 3:16 for you especially. Even demons can quote scripture.

There is no remission of sin without Baptism,


you are right here but it's not water baptism, it's spiritual baptism. Read John 3:8 where it says you don't know when and where it will come, it will be like the wind. We can't know or see the wind but we see the effects of it. Like a sailboat moving along the water.

That's the baptism that saves....NOT WATER. We don't save ourselves. Christ saves us from ourselves with the baptism of the HS. Our water baptism only is the outward show of whom we belong to and the start of our ministry just as Christ himself was baptized at the start of his. It's our first act of obedience.

Besides if it's as you say....water baptism saves, then everyone should get dunked cuz we're all going to heaven. Check the baptism records of the mafia. I'll bet they were all baptized.
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