"If it's provable we can kill it."
Or, why Jesus isn't a Christian
Published on June 12, 2006 By EmperorofIceCream In Misc
I have seen my Lord with the eye of my heart, and I said: "Who are You?" He said:"You."
(Diwan al-Hallaj, M. 10)

Your Spirit mixed with my Spirit little by little, by turns, through reunions and abandons.
And now I am Yourself, Your existence is my own, and it is also my will.
(Diwan al-Hallaj)

ana'l -Haqq - I am the Truth.
(this is the saying which apparently earned al-Hallaj his martyrdom - al Haqq also means God)

In the year 922 CE a man, al-Hallaj, utterly unknown in the West (though widely known in the Muslim world, and revered as a Sufi mystic, poet, and teacher) came before the legal and religious authorities of his day and, in an an ecstatic trance, uttered the words recorded above - ana'l-Haqq - I am the Truth, by which he meant that he had attained to such unity with God that he embodied in his own person the love of God for Man, the love of Man for God, to such a degree that he had become (in the words of the Jesus of the Christian tradition) the way, the truth, the life -

Jhn 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

for his temerity in making so bold a statement, al-Hallaj was executed, by crucifixtion.

I believe that Jesus the man lived, breathed, exercised his ministry as a prophet, and died pretty much as the Gospels report these events. I do not believe that Jesus the man was the Son of God, nor do I believe that he died for my sins and is the means of redemption. Though I could once say in all sincerity that his is the only name on which a man may call in order to be saved, I can no longer say so because I no longer believe that to be true.

Indeed, I have come to believe that I am my own salvation (my own Jesus) just as much as I am my own damnation (my own Adam). I'm little inclined to repeat what I've written elsewhere in defence of such a statement. Those who are interested, go read here (Link).

The 'Christ' of conventional Christianity is actually a form of blasphemy, the idolatry of a man and a prophet based on the propaganda of the tent-maker Paul, who was more determined to preach a 'christ' consonant with the ancient Hebrew scriptures (and so vindicate himself and his people) than he was to affirm that one more Messenger had come, preaching the same message that all the other Messengers had preached: worship God and love your neighbour better than you love yourself.

Since I believe that the spirit of God is infinitely more than the spirit of 'the Christ' I see no reason why that same spirit might not just as readily visit a Sufi poet and mystic as a Jewish carpenter - and in this sense 'Jesus' was indeed a Muslim. Those of you who read the linked article will encounter the Pentagrammaton, the five letter word that proceeds from the Tetragrammaton which is the closest thing that exists to an actual Name for 'God'.

I'm going to quote myself, from that same linked article.

Anyone who would be saviour to himself or others must be able to unite the Divine with the physical, overcome all opposites within himself, and at the same time maintain that tension in unity which is the source of all poetry and prophecy. It is this act of overcoming and submission which is designated by the term 'Jesus'. If you pronounce the Pentagrammaton in Hebrew it becomes 'Yeh-ha-shu-ah' which is usually translated as 'Joshua'. In the Greek of the New Testament it became 'Yay-su', which in English became 'Jesus'.

Jesus the Prophet (in whom I believe); Jesus the God-form (in whom I believe and whom I honor - though I give him no allegiance and he holds no place in my Ritual practice); and 'Jesus' the vocalization of the Pentagrammaton, in which I breathe and move as a fish breathes and moves in the sea; are fundamentally different entities. And all are equally different from 'Jesus the Christ', that blasphemous aberration and idolatrous figment whom most 'Christians' worship without ever knowing that, even according to the tenets of their own faith, this very act of worship is actually a damnable sin.

Jesus the Prophet was, as the Muslims attest, both a prophet and a man. Jesus the God-form is the actuation, the 'making real' in spiritual realms, of the veneration given (erroneously) to Jesus the man over 20 centuries. And Yeh-ha-shu-ah is a proceeding of the Spirit from the utterly unknowable, incomprehensible and Nameless Abyss that is 'God'.

And none of them have anything remotely to do with abomination that most 'Christians' profess to worship even while being utterly ignorant of the true nature of what they claim as God.

Which is why Jesus was never a Christian.


Comments (Page 4)
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on Jun 14, 2006
The trinity thing. I dont agree that there are 3 beings that equal to one God.


St Patrick - one of the few kickarse saints - used to explain it using the three-leaf clover as a metaphor. Basically all three beings are simply aspects of the same God just as the clover's three leaves are simply parts of the plant. We perceive God as being one of his aspects because our minds cannot encompass the whole, but in reality he is at one and the same time Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Emperor - I made a comment in Satan's Advocate's Christianity thread about belief which might relate to your argument against Baker.

In essence though I don't believe God calls for anything particularly strenuous, merely that we abandon everything and follow him. That doesn't mean we should abandon the accoutrements of modern life that make conversion of others easier or our example shine brighter.
on Jun 14, 2006
To island_gurl2:

Thank you. For a reply that's honest and non-self-serving and on topic. You're perfectly correct. You have no way to convince me that your experience of Truth is the same as my experience of the truth. But this article was never about that (though doe-eyed Lazarus, in his coquettish way, has tried to turn the argument into something like that - batting his eyelashes at me all the while, of course). It was and is about correspondence, relations, parallels, between different faiths - and also about the arrogance of those who think themselves fit to preach to other while being, in terms of their own professed faith, little more than walking corpses.

All the gods (though they be dead) are worthy of worship - if someone finds them so. I've no particular wish to trouble the genuine faith of anyone, merely to provoke and rebuke those who think themselves fit to rebuke others while wallowing in cynicism, cowardice, and contempt (are you listening, little Lazarus? Is you heart going pit-pat pit-pat with excitement?)

I think there is one God with three different nominations/descriptions whatever (The Father, The Son and the Holy Spirit). Just as I am a daughter, a sister, a friend and so on.


I like this. It chimes with my monotheism, and it's a more reasonable explanation of the trinity than most.
on Jun 14, 2006
"You're at liberty to leave now. Not that you will, of course. I see the fascination in your eyes, little Lazarus. Perhaps, as a child, you longed for some large, dark eyed man to fiddle around with you in a darkened room? Sorry, sweets. You're not my type."


You DO wear a cape when you post, don't you? I bet you like vampire movies.

Anyhoo, the first comment I made wasn't even talking to you, it was talking to the people who were trying to make you into an 'antichrist' which both amused me and made me a little nauseous. I didn't say anything about you, I was just commenting on the fact that painting you as the villian was just exactly what you were shooting for.

Had I made that on one of LW's blogs, she would have taken it in the spirit it was intended, I think. I don't blame you, though. It takes all kinds, even the kind who sound like they should be wearing a cape and a scary mask. I've known too many people who really earned their cape to be much impressed, though.

You adjust your position how you need to. If people who don't burn you at the stake need to be cowards and of little faith, then by all means, enjoy your comic book villian self-image. After all, without a good nemesis or two, there wouldn't be much image at all, would there?
on Jun 14, 2006
To BakerStreet:

Stop fluttering your lashes, love. It won't work, despite your desperate attempts to woo me through pretending you're some icy intellectual. I see through your girlish pretences. I know that, behind those foolish and not very effective attempts at disdain, your little heart throbs only for me. But, alas for you, tis not to be - I am immune to your charms (though I have heard that you look very good in a thong....)

No. No. It Is Not To Be. I never liked 'Failed Demagogue' as an aftershave...

Tell me again, dear. Which of those nasty boys was it who played with your peepee in the shower that day?
on Jun 15, 2006
To Tova7: I read your linked article. It's well written and to me not that surprising. I've heard such voices. On the night of my conversion and again, many years later. That first time, I had no other context, no other symbol with which to explain what had happened. I'd been spending time with Christian people, listening to them explain the universe as they saw it - and their eschatology was the only type of explanation I had that seemed to fit what had happened. I didn't just hear a voice, I felt a presence: and then I blacked out for five hours.

Years laterI had a very similar experience - almost identical in fact. I heard a voice, I felt a presence, and once again I passed out for several hourse. I felt, when I woke, that I had regained God. As I said to Sabrina later, over the net, "I have a God again." But there was not the remotest indication of a Christian element in this second experience - even though voice and presence that I encountered on the second occasion felt identical to that which I'd encountered the first time. And I realised that there had been nothing in the first experience, either, to tell me that 'Jesus Christ' was involved, that was something I had imposed on the experience - not something I had taken from it.

Unlike most I don't deny the existence of Jesus even though I don't believe in 'Jesus Christ'. The Jesus I know and honour (though I make no appeal to him, offer him no allegiance, and he plays no part in my Ritual life) is a God-form. God-forms take life from the fervency of those who believe in them. 20 centuries of worship and prayer have given rise to an actual spiritual entity, a God-form, capable of answering prayer, capable of changing lives, perhaps even worthy enough to die for. But Jesus is not 'Jesus Christ', not the Son of God, and no more capable of saving you for eternal life than I am of turning Lucas into a wit.

I don't believe in the Christian heaven. I don't believe in the Christian hell. I don't believe in salvation. I don't believe in redemption from sin. My God has no morality, only aesthetics and humour (the kind of humour that gives someone a flipper for a left hand - and then makes him naturally left handed). I do however believe in the Last Day, and a Judgment of sorts - a Judgment as to the degree to which each life has conformed to the aesthetic of God's creation, as revealed through Natural Reason and through Revelation.

So I can readily agree with you if you were to say that you had 'met' Jesus, that Jesus has transformed your life. It's just that I'd differ with you as to the Jesus you had met.
on Jun 15, 2006
Years laterI had a very similar experience - almost identical in fact. I heard a voice, I felt a presence, and once again I passed out for several hourse. I felt, when I woke, that I had regained God. As I said to Sabrina later, over the net, "I have a God again."

Can you write an article about this experience, or a link to it if you've already written about it? I find this very interesting. Thanks!

I don't believe in the Christian heaven. I don't believe in the Christian hell. I don't believe in salvation. I don't believe in redemption from sin.


I do however believe in the Last Day, and a Judgment of sorts - a Judgment as to the degree to which each life has conformed to the aesthetic of God's creation, as revealed through Natural Reason and through Revelation.

I dont picture a heaven or a hell either. Because I think we all have a conception of heaven that is different. As for hell, I dont know about that. I like to think that God is love. And that we either share 'heaven' with him or we just vanish / disappear, lol! Hehe, it sounds like i'm talking nonesense now. It's a mystery to me, so I'll just leave it to that heh!
on Jun 17, 2006
To island_gurl12:

Can you write an article about this experience, or a link to it if you've already written about it? I find this very interesting. Thanks!


Yes I can. And may even pass the remainder of the day in doing so (it's 92+ degrees outside and I have no desire to go anywhere or do anything that takes me away from the air-conditioning, old, feeble, and lacking duct work though it is...)
on Jun 18, 2006
Can you write an article about this experience, or a link to it if you've already written about it?


Link

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