Jesus was a Muslim... Didn't you know that?

Or, why Jesus isn't a Christian

Published on June 12, 2006 By EmperorofIceCream In Misc

I have seen my Lord with the eye of my heart, and I said: "Who are You?" He said:"You."
(Diwan al-Hallaj, M. 10)

Your Spirit mixed with my Spirit little by little, by turns, through reunions and abandons.
And now I am Yourself, Your existence is my own, and it is also my will.
(Diwan al-Hallaj)

ana'l -Haqq - I am the Truth.
(this is the saying which apparently earned al-Hallaj his martyrdom - al Haqq also means God)

In the year 922 CE a man, al-Hallaj, utterly unknown in the West (though widely known in the Muslim world, and revered as a Sufi mystic, poet, and teacher) came before the legal and religious authorities of his day and, in an an ecstatic trance, uttered the words recorded above - ana'l-Haqq - I am the Truth, by which he meant that he had attained to such unity with God that he embodied in his own person the love of God for Man, the love of Man for God, to such a degree that he had become (in the words of the Jesus of the Christian tradition) the way, the truth, the life -

Jhn 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

for his temerity in making so bold a statement, al-Hallaj was executed, by crucifixtion.

I believe that Jesus the man lived, breathed, exercised his ministry as a prophet, and died pretty much as the Gospels report these events. I do not believe that Jesus the man was the Son of God, nor do I believe that he died for my sins and is the means of redemption. Though I could once say in all sincerity that his is the only name on which a man may call in order to be saved, I can no longer say so because I no longer believe that to be true.

Indeed, I have come to believe that I am my own salvation (my own Jesus) just as much as I am my own damnation (my own Adam). I'm little inclined to repeat what I've written elsewhere in defence of such a statement. Those who are interested, go read here (Link).

The 'Christ' of conventional Christianity is actually a form of blasphemy, the idolatry of a man and a prophet based on the propaganda of the tent-maker Paul, who was more determined to preach a 'christ' consonant with the ancient Hebrew scriptures (and so vindicate himself and his people) than he was to affirm that one more Messenger had come, preaching the same message that all the other Messengers had preached: worship God and love your neighbour better than you love yourself.

Since I believe that the spirit of God is infinitely more than the spirit of 'the Christ' I see no reason why that same spirit might not just as readily visit a Sufi poet and mystic as a Jewish carpenter - and in this sense 'Jesus' was indeed a Muslim. Those of you who read the linked article will encounter the Pentagrammaton, the five letter word that proceeds from the Tetragrammaton which is the closest thing that exists to an actual Name for 'God'.

I'm going to quote myself, from that same linked article.

Anyone who would be saviour to himself or others must be able to unite the Divine with the physical, overcome all opposites within himself, and at the same time maintain that tension in unity which is the source of all poetry and prophecy. It is this act of overcoming and submission which is designated by the term 'Jesus'. If you pronounce the Pentagrammaton in Hebrew it becomes 'Yeh-ha-shu-ah' which is usually translated as 'Joshua'. In the Greek of the New Testament it became 'Yay-su', which in English became 'Jesus'.

Jesus the Prophet (in whom I believe); Jesus the God-form (in whom I believe and whom I honor - though I give him no allegiance and he holds no place in my Ritual practice); and 'Jesus' the vocalization of the Pentagrammaton, in which I breathe and move as a fish breathes and moves in the sea; are fundamentally different entities. And all are equally different from 'Jesus the Christ', that blasphemous aberration and idolatrous figment whom most 'Christians' worship without ever knowing that, even according to the tenets of their own faith, this very act of worship is actually a damnable sin.

Jesus the Prophet was, as the Muslims attest, both a prophet and a man. Jesus the God-form is the actuation, the 'making real' in spiritual realms, of the veneration given (erroneously) to Jesus the man over 20 centuries. And Yeh-ha-shu-ah is a proceeding of the Spirit from the utterly unknowable, incomprehensible and Nameless Abyss that is 'God'.

And none of them have anything remotely to do with abomination that most 'Christians' profess to worship even while being utterly ignorant of the true nature of what they claim as God.

Which is why Jesus was never a Christian.

Comments (Page 2)

EmperorofIceCream

on Jun 13, 2006

To BakerStreet:

Do so. While you're at it, move your thumb around a little and give your brains a stir. Perhaps then you'll be able to come up with something on the topic and which furthers the discussion.

As you admit, you're grossly overrated.

cactoblasta

on Jun 13, 2006

Since I believe that the spirit of God is infinitely more than the spirit of 'the Christ' I see no reason why that same spirit might not just as readily visit a Sufi poet and mystic as a Jewish carpenter - and in this sense 'Jesus' was indeed a Muslim.

It's also true through an appropriate reading of Muslim theology. Unfortunately I don't have a Qur'an at hand so can't give you sura, but I do remember reading that Muslims believe they are descendents of the same familial line as the Jews. Both descend from Abraham, it's just the mother that differs. By the same token Islam accepts Jesus as one of the earliest prophets and therefore in that one a member of the religion, although admittedly a member of it in its formative years.

So historically Jesus was as much a Muslim as he was a Jew, or at least he's claimed as such by Islam.

-----

on Jun 13, 2006

Believing in something generally means, at the very least, being able to name what you believe in, along with being able to give an outline of the nature of your belief and why you believe what you believe

Not necessarily. To me, the idea that there is *no* supreme being, (Whatever it is) is illogical/impossible. I believe that, whatever your faith is, (THAT is what I call my case. Faith. NOT religion. Religion is a expedient of humans.) you do not need a church to preach to you. You can find your own way.

not caring for organized religion and believing in a supreme being does not mean you are part of no religion. It means you're part of the hoplessly confused lazy-ass religion - which is very nearly the same thing as saying you're a Christian, or at least what presently passes for a Christian.

It doesn't matter whether I am technically part of any religion. I don't consider myself to be. It is my will, that makes the big difference. I refuse to be associated with religion.

And if you can't manage that minimum then, Lucas, in your case it really would be better to keep silent and be thought a fool rather than opening your mouth and demonstrating to the world that you actually are a fool - as you have just done.

Have you been talking to your wife lately?

EmperorofIceCream

on Jun 13, 2006

To Lucas:

I usually do. She keeps you around for the same reason I'm willing to - it's fun to kick the helplessly immature and defenseless now and then.

THAT is what I call my case. Faith. NOT religion.

Faith in what, Lucas? The Supreme Artichoke? The Unavoidable Return of the Infallible Moonbat? And what, precisely, do you so despise about organized religion?

Religion is a expedient of humans

If religion is expedient (serves one's interest or purpose, is able to meet a sudden or urgent need) just what is it that you hold in such contempt?

And one more question: do you actually know anything at all about the contents of your own head? Because you appear not to.

(See? It's that kicking puppies thing again... I couldn't help it though... the Infallible Moonbat made me do it)

EmperorofIceCream

on Jun 13, 2006

To cactoblasta:

So historically Jesus was as much a Muslim as he was a Jew, or at least he's claimed as such by Islam.

Certainly there's a shared heritage between them, and a familial line, and in the interest of clear thinking that in itself is something worth pointing out - especially in our current circumstances. That's only a part of the point I was making however (a point made for the benefit of self-satified ignoramuses such as KFC) - which is that 'Jesus Christ', supposed God of the Christians, is actually an instance of idol-worship and a form of blasphemy. No such fabulous creature as the 'Son of God' exists now, or was ever required to exist.

cactoblasta

on Jun 13, 2006

That's only a part of the point I was making however (a point made for the benefit of self-satified ignoramuses such as KFC) - which is that 'Jesus Christ', supposed God of the Christians, is actually an instance of idol-worship and a form of blasphemy. No such fabulous creature as the 'Son of God' exists now, or was ever required to exist.

Sure. I figured it was worth saying anyway.

I'd like to think Jesus as the son of god existed though. It's always nice to have someone to blame.

bakerstreet

on Jun 13, 2006

"Simon had you blacklisted when I woke up this morning, and since we share a computer that would have rendered you unable to comment on my threads as well. While Im sure this would have caused you little (if any) consternation, I pride myself on the shortness of said list (there is only one person on it at the moment) so I've asked Him to lift the ban, which He has. However, any further comment by you on this thread will be deleted and result in your return to the blacklist, so I'd appreciate your cooperation."

Let him, I don't care. My remark wasn't any different than the ones you guys leave here and there. As for this article, there's not much to say. He's just rejecting what he considers to be a mythology in favor of what other people consider to be a mythology.

The idea that anyone is going to back any of this up is pretty silly. If he wants to believe it, fine. It doesn't effect my belief, nor does my belief require me to bait other people about theirs. If he wants to debate how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, fine, but until someone can prove the existance of an angel to me, there's not much to debate about.

Arguing Jesus was this and Jesus was that when 90% of anything we say is unproven and basically made up isn't accomplishing anything. I have no doubt that a lot of the Christian tradition about Jesus is mythology. Held to that standard, I'm not seeing anything in EoIC's opinion that is more reliable.

P.S. I don't make assertions about my skill at writing or my intelligence, either. He's more than welcome to muse about my lack of either, and I'll continue not caring about his skills one way or the other and just judge what he writes.

bakerstreet

on Jun 13, 2006

I'm probably wrong, but I don't think it works that way. I can see it blocking you both when the site itself blacklists you, but I would imagine since you have separate accounts your blacklists would be different for each account, right? I don't think it would matter about your IP, since you could be accessing your accounts from any computer really.

Guess we'll see.

EmperorofIceCream

on Jun 13, 2006

To BakerStreet:

The idea that anyone is going to back any of this up is pretty silly. If he wants to believe it, fine. It doesn't effect my belief, nor does my belief require me to bait other people about theirs. If he wants to debate how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, fine, but until someone can prove the existance of an angel to me, there's not much to debate about.

This is not that far removed from the smartass nonsense you responded with before - except that it now has a whining note at its edge.

Belief is a structure of thought. It can be defined, refined, updated, and debated. The fact that your faith, by your own confession, is lukewarm, half-hearted and incapable of inspiring you to debate with non-believers is by the by. As is the degree to which faith, yours or mine, is mythological or not - which is a straw man of the very poorest sort because, as you ought to know (and probably do) allfaiths are to some degree mythological. Or, rather, are exercises in mythopoesis on the part of believers both as individuals and communities.

None of which is to the point. I'm perpetually sickened by the crass arrogance of 'believers' such as yourself who present themselves as the acme of truth before the rest of the heathen - but run like rabbits when challenged to give an account of their faith and why they believe as they say they do.

Remember, believer (if such you actually are and not the feeble procrastinater you appear to be), what was said by the Angel to the church at Laodicea:

Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
Rev 3:15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
Rev 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

But of course, such warnings are 'mythological', right?

-----

on Jun 13, 2006

Every day, Lucas, but that has nothing to do with his treatment of you, which I must say has been kinder than I would have offered up. He is simply asking you to explain yourself, which you seem unwilling or unable to do.

I'm not saying it has to do with how he treated me. The way he was saying things sounded almost identical to the way you do. It is not that I am unwilling. I gave him my answers.

I usually do. She keeps you around for the same reason I'm willing to - it's fun to kick the helplessly immature and defenseless now and then.

*rolls eyes* Thanks, but no thanks.

aith in what, Lucas? The Supreme Artichoke? The Unavoidable Return of the Infallible Moonbat? And what, precisely, do you so despise about organized religion?

In something better. I mean, have you taken a look around the world? We're a bunch of selfish, ignorant, greed7, savage beasts. Seriously. What do I despise about oganized religion. The fact that it is easily corrupt. That, they insist on "interpreting god," that they have killed innocents in the name of god. You could say that I have a lack of "faith," in humans.

(See above)

I know some. I can't say that I know everything about myself. I expect, down the road, that as I encounter things, people, etc... I will learn more about myself. It's life.

I'm bowing out of this. I'd rather not go through another round of, "kick the puppy."

bakerstreet

on Jun 13, 2006

To EoIC: Debate what? That what the people who made up my religion have it over the people who made up yours? If you are going to toss scripture at me you don't know me that well. That book was written by people, not God. There's about as much chance of me arguing Jesus's divinity with you as me arguing the trinity with another Christian.

Why? Because arguments need to be based on something. As I said before, I can argue how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, but it meaningless to people who don't agree on the exitence of angels. You have no idea of how many hours I have bandied back and forth with revisionist historians about how every steeple is a penis and every bibilical figure is really a hijacked pagan mythology.

So, you'll pardon me a yawn. I apprecate your beliefs, and respect your right to believe them. I don't count them to be any less factually based than my own. That said, I don't think mine are all that much based upon fact, either. Maybe you are 'inspired', and maybe the people you disagree with are.

If you want to sit around in the temple and argue the law, fine, but if I choose not to it is no indication as to whether my works are "cold or hot". Whatever God may be, I'll be accepted or spewed for what I do, not because I failed to be a good PR person for him.

Other people's souls aren't of that much concern to me, and no God that needed me to prove his existence to the world is worth worshipping. My God is apparent to anyone who seeks Him. Those who don't, wouldn't see Him regardless.

-----

on Jun 13, 2006

Ok, I did say I was going to bow out, but there was something I wanted to add.

One of the things about me not caring for religion. Is the fact that every time I have gone to a service, of any faith -- I have never felt comfortable. In fact, I prefer to never go back.

~L

NOW, I'm bowing out.

bakerstreet

on Jun 13, 2006

" I'm perpetually sickened by the crass arrogance of 'believers' such as yourself who present themselves as the acme of truth before the rest of the heathen - but run like rabbits when challenged to give an account of their faith and why they believe as they say they do."

I keep coming back to that, since you mention straw man arguments. You, of all people want to talk about arrogance? Not everyone that doesn't spoonfeed you venom is running away. You are the one who likes to rank the pantheon of gods, and talk about this abomination or that weak projection of our insecurities. I'll opt not to project my insecurities on my God, because I don't think He really needs me to bat for Him.

If I choose not to play, it isn't because I'm scared of you, because I don't worship Crnobog or his brother or any other manifestation of people's insane need to measure whose God is bigger. It's because I, quite frankly, don't care whether you believe or not. I'm not that smart, as you say, but I'm smart enough to see that your faith relies on this conflict with other faiths.

Dig a little deeper, friend, and you might find that I don't worship the same God you think I do. I'll leave you to people who like to debate mythology and the little anthropomorphisms people like to project on God. Jealousy, cruelty, etc., are for entities in need. If you want to waste your time on critiquing cave paintings, knock yourself out.

KFC Kickin For Christ

on Jun 13, 2006

Speak, believer. Or keep the silence that condemns you.

what exactly do you want to know? I see you quote scripture quite often. Why is that? If you have no use for Christ, why speak his words? That in itself is a contradiction.

I can see you have biblical knowledge. I'm willing to go head to head. Throw me what you've got. I'm willing to go toe to toe. I promise I won't run away. I will not be silenced, I will not back down nor will I ever give up. I'm a junkyard dog with a bone and I know the value of what I've got. You and your lovely wife do not scare me nor will you have any influence on shutting my trap.

You come across very strong here on JU. What are you hiding? Where is all this pent up anger coming from? Why are you warring against God so? I understand your anger is not at me...you don't even know me. It's what I represent. Your anger is with God.

Speak up you non believer or keep the silence that condemns you.

EmperorofIceCream

on Jun 13, 2006

To KFC:

Speak up you non believer or keep the silence that condemns you.

Happily. What angered me against you was your original dismissal of something that I'd expended time and serious thought to create. I don't write without reason and what I write (as in an article itself) I require to be respected. I demand a response to the article, not the author, and I'll not tolerate the childish, fatuous nonsense you produced as a first response.

what exactly do you want to know? I see you quote scripture quite often. Why is that? If you have no use for Christ, why speak his words? That in itself is a contradiction.

The faith I now hold derives directly from the faith I once had. As a Christian then I was far more often moved and inspired by the books of the OT than those of the NT (with the exceptions of Romans, Hebrews, and Revelation). As I set out to make plain in the article there are deep rooted parallels and correspondences between the development of Christianity and Islam that deserve respect and exploration - up to and including the crucifixion of al-Hallaj, whose testimony and death are closely related to that of Jesus, the man and prophet.

The words I most often cite derive from the Pentateuch and from the epistles, not from the gospels. They are no more the words of 'Jesus Christ' than these words I'm currently typing. So there is no contradiction between citing the OT and having no use for the false 'Christ' of contemporary Christianity.

You come across very strong here on JU. What are you hiding? Where is all this pent up anger coming from? Why are you warring against God so? I understand your anger is not at me...you don't even know me. It's what I represent. Your anger is with God.

Hiding? After telling you up front that I consider myself to be damned? After telling you that, in the terms of contemporary Christianity I'm an Apostate and a Heretic? After telling you that I consider my damnation to be righteous and the proper reward for what I freely acknowledge is 'sinful' in your terms - and that I look forward to my damnation with an eager expectation and joy that I'm entirely certain you'll never comprehend? How is this hiding?

As to anger, since I freely express it, making you and all others as vain, as prideful, as revoltingly hypocritical as yourself, its object and do so with no pretence that what I express is anything other than anger, how is this being 'pent up'? And you are wrong. My anger is directed directly at you, not because of anything in your personal life (about which I know nothing and in which I have no interest at all) but because you profess to be able to remove the mote from your neighbour's eye while remaining utterly oblivious of the beam in your own.

I agree with you that you are unable to convert anyone else. Not because that's the role of the Holy Spirit but because in your proselytizing you are condemning and judgmental - while awarding to yourself the kudos of one of God's favored children, bound for heaven. That 'heaven' may well be full of people like you is one reason I celebrate the fact that I'm (in your terms) going to Hell. Though to be perfectly honest I no longer believe in either Heaven or Hell as either physical location or spiritual states.

I will have what I want, in this life and the next, and while what I want may seem to others like hell (which is why I still use the term) from the point of view of my will and desire its heaven - though heaven without Jesus Christ, or the cheeping of his kid brother the Dove, or the endless vanity of his wretched Father.

I have no anger towards God, though I was at one time deeply pissed at 'Jesus Christ' and his followers. My anger is directed at you, and those like you.

Now, believer, do as your Bible requires you to do - and give me an account of your faith and why you believe. Do so, and I'll return the favor.

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