"If it's provable we can kill it."
Or, why I love my Demon so
Published on January 27, 2006 By EmperorofIceCream In Misc
How many different sorts of suffering are there in the world? And how many of them are innocent? I've no doubt there are many, and that asking how many forms can be described as innocent is akin to asking how many angels can dance on the point of a pin - not head, as is usually stated. A mathematical answer has been worked out (Link) but mathematics has no soul and can't be thought of theologically.

So be damned to it.

Participatory, sacrificial pain interests me. And the best, the most perfect, example of it is the suffering of Jesus Christ. But think about it. What does the story of the death of Christ tell us about God (as God appears in the Christian version). Mostly, it tells us that God is a mean motherfucker who'll torture his kid to death to prove a point. And yes, I can hear you saying "But the resurrection, the resurrection proves that God is really, really nice after all."

Except that Jesus continues to suffer even after his resurrection. After all, he was the Living Word, according to the Gospel of John, through whom all physical reality was made and in whom it subsists. Creation however longs for its redemption from corruption, it suffers the corruption that overtook the world when Adam fell and it suffers continually the redemptive agony of Christ (because Christ's redemption of the physical world has not yet manifested and so is ongoing).

As many a zealous Christian will tell you, every sin recrucifies Christ and every partcipatory act of innocent suffering (such as an animal under a vivesectionist's knife, or the random victim of violence, every child that starves to death, is tortured to death), is balm to his wounds and a step toward the coming Kingdom of God on earth.

Sure God's a nice guy. He made his kid the foundation of the universe, the substance of the universe - and then infected him with cancer. Then he made the boy a physical being and tortured him to death. And then resurrected him in a perfect imperishable body (a body made perfect for the reception of pain), a body that is still the substance of the universe, still cancerous, still suffering and constantly, endlessly crucified. Sure God's a nice guy. Sure.

There's another way of looking at it, of course. It doesn't involve Jesus at all - except as one more poor sod no different from the rest of us, apart from being more than usually afflicted by delusions of understanding (and in possessing the happy and useful knack of turning water into wine).

No, we're all God's kids in this version, just as we're all orphans, because this God has no more interest in us personally than any other artist does in the welfare or otherwise of his creations. Suffering is a color on the canvas, a thread in the tapestry, a note in the music. If the suffering of individuals has meaning it's only as part of some incomprehensible exercise in creation. And since such meaning is incomprehensible - then for us it doesn't exist at all. Certainly it doesn't exist in any sense from which we might draw comfort, or strength, or hope. In fact, to know that there is meaning, meaning that assuages, that satisfies, that redeems, but that we'll never know because we were made too dumb to understand it, could only ever be a source of despair. Better, by far, to believe that there is no such meaning - which is the root of all atheism, and the motivating terror behind deism, agnosticism, the cult of nature and the environment, and all such spineless, cowardly responses to any question involving God and suffering.

And any question that considers God and the world must involve suffering because there's just so much of it. Maybe not in your life, right now (though I'll guarantee almost all of you have suffered in the past and will again in the future) but in someone's life, somewhere. Go look at your TV. If you lick the screen you'll be able to taste the misery, like bitter honey, sweet in the mouth but foul in the belly....

Not God the child-torturer, the tormentor of a physical/spiritual universe, then, but God the Artist. Not indifferent to suffering but creating it according to an aesthetic impulse It alone understands. Not a nice guy, no, but not a bad guy either. In fact, not any kind of guy - an It that makes things, and prefers red above every other color.

Of course, there's another way of looking at things.

In this universe there's what you like, and there's what you haven't had enough of - but it has no moral dimension At least, not if morality is understood in terms of 'being good' (or 'saved', or 'justified by the blood of the Lamb') and equals going to heaven, while 'being bad' (whether that means extra-marital sex, or drugs, or whatever) equals going to hell. It has morality when 'morality' is understood as teleology - the fullest possible development of the individual in every way, and where the seeking of such development is virtue and refusing it is vice.

Not sin, vice. Because the God of this universe has no morality, no aesthetic, only Will. Will, Power, Knowledge. Perhaps it knows love - but if so it's love is as incomprehensible as its Will, and its loving attention is something best not aroused.

Unless, of course, you're prepared to look (the kind of look Burroughs meant when he called his best book 'The Naked Lunch', the look you give the meat on your fork when you see it as dead meat and not 'food') at what it is you like and what it is that you haven't had enough, and decide to pursue whatever you see with the implacable resolve to experience that thing to its most absolute extent.

That's the Universe I live in, now. I have a God, which has no name. I participate in its purposes without understanding them on the basis of desire and will, and having roused its loving attention I know I can't make it go back to sleep. Not that I'd want to: too much of horror and wonder has come into my life (though not yet to the full degree of what's been promised me) for me to do that.

If I suffer, I suffer because either I like what causes it or I haven't had enough of what causes it. I admit I'm my own worst enemy just as I admit I'm my own best friend. No one's coming to rescue me because the Universe and it's God are indifferent to whether I live or die - except insofar as I make myself most fully myself, and then only because in doing so I become, perfectly, one more fragment that makes up the perfection of the whole. And the whole is necessarily perfect, simply in virtue of being that thing that was willed by God. And as every good Christian (or Muslim, or Hindu, or Jew) will tell you, the will of God is perfect.

Why is this a religion of devils? Because love is not at its center, Will is, Desire is, Lust is - things not good nor bad in themselves but simply a part of me to be pursued and developed like any other part. And because, in me, Will, Desire, Lust - are all devilish in the objects to which they are directed.

Not so much as a conscious choice (just as I didn't choose to like vanilla ice cream above any other kind) but as a function of what I am - biologically, intellectually, spiritually. My Christ, if I was interested in having one, would be a negative Christ, the mirror image of the christian Christ, a combination of Baldur and Loki, a trickster who instead of dying for my sins died so that he could turn around and say "I died for you motherfucker. Now what are you going to do for me?" A God of exigent demands, and one who doesn't deal in rewards, or punishments - just in what we are, and what we want, and what we're prepared to do to get it.

But I have no interest in Christ anymore, not even in vilifying him, which was all that was left to me of my Christianity once I'd encountered the Angel in the sick greed of my lust, the Angel I serve with my flesh in rituals of sexual subjugation that I've only just begun to explore.

News Flash!! News Flash!!! News Flash!!!! Yes, people, the rumors are true!!!! Incubi and Succubbi really do exist!!!!!! And they make house calls!!!!

Like every good magickian I've traded everything I thought I was for the power that comes from knowing what I actually am (a moral monster and a theological lunatic). And it's in the converstion with the Angel that has grown from that realisation that I've begun the process that will lead to an unreason that, while it has lost the good of what it appeared to be formerly, retains the structure and appearance of what it was, and so still passes, among my friends and neighbours, for what they typically consider to be rationality. Like Mad King George I have discovered (or rediscovered) the power to seem.

In my religion madness and terror are the equivalent of love and good works, and salvation is not 'salvation from' but 'baptism into' a state of mind that while it's as exalted as any holy ecstasy, and as much an act of worship, is the antithesis of these things as they appear in the Christian story.

I'm a theological heretic, a post-christian Christian, in love with a Jesus of my own creation to precisely the degree that I'm able to murder him every day. Which is only to say that knowingly, in fulll complicity, and with the fullest awareness of the possibility of deception, I'm in love with the inevitability of my destruction.

Evil, be thou my good - vice be thou my virtue.

The only way I can imagine God now is as a blood-stained grin on the face of the Universe, lips parted a little, enough to show the crusted fangs behind them.

My religion is a religion of devils because it sees the necessity for a God who is the fullest expression of the reverse of the God most know in the forms of Islam, Judaism, Christianity. I am a disciple of the darkness that's at the heart of the light of God, and it's only a Devil who can see that darkness and appreciate its severe beauty. Not for nothing was Satan described as the most beautiful of all the first-born Sons of God.

It's the lips of the Angel (the Demon) I've come to know that have spoken these things to me. It's my virtue as a Magickian to understand that even though I believe everything I've learned to be true I also know it to be entirely false. The last thing is to realise that it doesn't matter. There's only what you want and what you're willing to pay for it. The more your willing to pay, the more you'll eventually have. And if you pay everything you can have everything - exactly what you want.

I want sexual terror without limit, suffered and inflicted, and an end to the World of Man - and I want to live long enough to see it burn.

Because a conversation is deceitful doesn't mean it isn't worth participating in and only an honest man will tell you beforehand that he's a liar, just as only a liar will tell you that he's honest. It's because my Demon (my Angel) is an honest liar and tells me that I will experience that terror without limit, will live to see the flames eat the world (all the while wearing that bloody grin, pale flesh gleaming and demanding in a darkness that's as much laughter and the presence of something else as it is the absence of light, as much treachery as it is satisfaction), it's because he speaks and tells me these things that I love him as I do.

Comments (Page 4)
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on Feb 01, 2006

Apparantly, that's the name of god in the Middle East

Darn...I need a new deity name....  Of course, I wonder if their "Stan" is a Chihuahua in a pink sweater?

I don't think this is absurd, I think it's a good thing. They change with the times. Someday, all the old rules will be gone. Hooray for Evolution!

Bible....Christianity...Evolution...  One of these things is not like the others....

If the bible is the word of God, the rules can't change.  If they do, that is man made religion.  If you believe that the bible is the word of God, you should follow it verbatim.  It has no room for man made change.

 

on Feb 01, 2006
I've given some thought to the positions people are supposed to get into when they pray. Christians are supposed to kneel with their hands clasped in front of their faces. I wonder, what are they supposed to be holding in their hands (metaphorically) when they kneel before a man? And just what does "annoint" mean?

Islamics look like they're getting screwed doggy-style. "Screwed" in more ways than one?

Maybe I have too much free time.
on Feb 01, 2006
If the bible is the word of God, the rules can't change. If they do, that is man made religion


I think you just hit the nail on the head.
on Feb 01, 2006
Christians are supposed to kneel with their hands clasped in front of their faces. I wonder, what are they supposed to be holding in their hands (metaphorically) when they kneel before a man?


Huh? Where did you get this?

I pray all day long, while driving, while walking, while singing...while peeing...you get the picture. ha.

And sometimes (gasp) I even get on my face before God. (Meaning laying in a prone position.)

on Feb 01, 2006
Though "Jill" may agree with me, that was me that you quoted, not her.

Oops... sorry. Still a valid point.
on Feb 01, 2006
It's no problem Tova, as Simon wasted eleven years of His life as a Pentecostal Uber-Zealot with a capital Z


Wow, no wonder he left the faith.

My great Uncle was a Pentecostal preacher. I won't go into detail about my experiences with "pentecostal faith" but its so far from the way I worship, pray and associate with God that I can't even believe they claim Christ. In my experience it really seems to be all about them...the tongues, the dresses, etc.

My Great uncle is also a child molester. And that denomination by its very structure, enabled him to do it for years without anyone questioning his "authority."

So, yeah, I could be biased, but I can also see why one would leave it.

I still think its a hoot how the thread went from a religion of devils, to well, other areas!
on Feb 01, 2006
Can you believe the bible without the "Jesus factor"? Can you believe that Jesus was the son of God, but he is not your saviour and still be OK? Can you believe that Christians and Jews are brothers and will see each other in heaven? I believe a "Christian" (by pure definition) would say "no".

Personally, I don't think you can believe the bible (all of it) without the Jesus factor. It's the foundation of the whole thing. Do I believe that as a Christian, I will see Jews in heaven? I know some Messianic Jews, and I believe I will see them in heaven, but I'm sure that's probably not the Jew you're talking about. It's not for me to say whether I will see them in heaven or not. Only God knows the heart and it's His call. My gut instinct (as a Christian) is to say no, because they do not believe that Jesus is God, and the bible says He's the only way to the Father. Again, that's my doctrine speaking. My heart says that God in His infinite wisdom is able to reach out to each of us individually and only He knows what He finds there.

That said, as a Christian I CAN respect that someone else disagrees with me. I'll be the first to tell you that I don't have all the answers, and there are many things that I just don't know. I realize others have their own set of beliefs and that they are sincere in what they adhere to. I can't shove my theology down someone's throat. I can share and then let go. Generally, the more someone tries to force feed you something, the more you gag. Besides... I can't MAKE anyone believe anything. Faith is an individual thing... we all have to come to God ourselves, I can't MAKE anyone become or believe something they choose not to. All I can do is share my convictions with the hope that something I express will spark a desire in someone else to know the Lord the way I know Him. The results are up to God.

If the bible is the word of God, the rules can't change. If they do, that is man made religion. If you believe that the bible is the word of God, you should follow it verbatim. It has no room for man made change.

Agreed. Absolutely.


Christians are supposed to kneel with their hands clasped in front of their faces. I wonder, what are they supposed to be holding in their hands (metaphorically) when they kneel before a man? And just what does "annoint" mean?

Hmmmmmm... I kneel figuratively. I bow before Him (my spirit) and surrender my heart to Him. Rarely am I literally on my knees... hands aren't often folded in prayer. Ditto what Tova said. My prayer life isn't some ritualistic thing... it's conversation with my Father. I get mad and complain to Him... I recognize the blessings He's given me and thank Him... I ask for help from Him for friends and loved ones... I tell Him I love Him. Nothing magical or ceremonial about it... just talking, one friend to another Friend.
on Feb 01, 2006
Huh? Where did you get this?

I pray all day long, while driving, while walking, while singing...while peeing...you get the picture. ha.

And sometimes (gasp) I even get on my face before God. (Meaning laying in a prone position.)


Ditto Tova...while cooking...anywhere and doing anything!
on Feb 01, 2006
anywhere and doing anything!


Hmmm, no, not gonna go there I'll just say, maybe that's why so many proclaim "Oh God" in certain situations
on Feb 02, 2006
anywhere and doing anything!Hmmm, no, not gonna go there I'll just say, maybe that's why so many proclaim "Oh God" in certain situations


!
on Feb 05, 2006
Hmmm, no, not gonna go there I'll just say, maybe that's why so many proclaim "Oh God" in certain situations


YUP YUP
on Feb 05, 2006
Well. It's been awhile since I've visited this one. My thanks to Karma and BakerStreet for the points fest there... When you stop slagging each other off on a blogsite and come to actual blows let me know. Watching people bleed is just the funnest thing. However, all your comments were at least related to the topic and are actually useful illustrations of one way in which Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism etc etc ad infinitum ad nauseam are all equally 'religions of devils'

'Devil' is not a pejorative term in my opinion. Neither is 'Angel' a term designating something 'good'. According to the Book of Tobias, Asmodeus (or Apollyan) protected the maiden Sarah from her evil suitors by killing them as she and her various husbands were about to celebrate their Nuptials. And we all know it was an Angel God sent to kill the firstborn sons of Egypt.

Angel, Demon, call them what you want. They're all the Firstborn, and they all hate us equally for having supplanted them in the love of God.

What we call 'devilish' is generally associated with our passions, and with our lust. So that any religion capable of inciting those passions and lusts is in that degree a religion of devils. You'll remember I hope that I offered a reasonably clear definition of why my own faith is a religion of devils. In my own case it's because I exalt those aspects of myself which are sexually dominating and feed on the pain which I inflict upon the bodies of my lovers. I've found a way to make these things my God while connecting them not to whatever peculiar condition characterizes my mental/spiritual/sexual life (which would be no more than a kind of spiritual masturbation) but to something Other that exists outside myself and might just as well be called God as anything else. There was a time when I referred to It simply as 'LoU'.

Christianity, indeed any religion in my opinion, is a religion of devils precisely because it incites the kind of fatuous and irresolvable 'debate' that's occurred here, where understanding is not facilitated by communication but actually obscured by it. Generally, the intellectual/spiritual passions (as oppoded to the fleshly ones) incited by religion are those of anger, envy, pride and fear. All of which have been wonderfully displayed in Karma and Baker's entertaining spat. Along with, of course, condesencion, arrogance, and the urge to patronise each other with comments of a 'there there, dear, I'm sure you're trying really hard and it's not your fault that you're just too dumb to understand..." type.

And since it's this kind of conversation, and these types of passions, that are incited whenever believers discuss their respective faiths, and since historically discussions of this type have usually resulted in war (when they're conducted on a large enough scale, with sufficient vehemence, and over a long enough time - just as they're about to again in the discussion between Islam and the West) I feel justified in concluding that all religions, Christianity included, are in fact religions of devils.

I used to think the fault lay with the believers. Now I'm certain it lies with the concept of religion itself, where and if the concept of religion included a broadly unified dogma, a structure of authority, and the willingness of believers to abandon civility, decency and good sense, whenever a priest (or mullah, or pope, or whatever) requires them to.

The very fact, the simple act, of investing faith (which is surely one of the most potent passions of the mind and spirit) in such a structure apparently guarantees that the result will be conflict of the bitterest sort, both within and across communities of believers.

Long before I left the church that Sabrina referred to, long before I left the Church, I'd come to the conclusion that all priests, vicars, deacons, presbyters, bishops, pastors (ecclesiarchs of whatever title and uniform) are all in fact thieves and murderers - thieves of liberty and murderers of the spirit - and, therefore, devils.

As I say, Karma's and Baker's buffoonery here provided a useful illustration of something I hadn't made clear in the original article.

Thanks.
on Feb 05, 2006
As I say, Karma's and Baker's buffoonery


You sure like to push peoples' buttons, don't you. Of course you wouldn't have written this blog to begin with if that weren't the case. You could choose much more delicate language to express your opinions on the matter if you weren't looking to get people foaming. You certainly wouldn't refer to God as a sadistic mofo if you were trying to be popular

It has been a very entertaining thread.
on Feb 05, 2006
To JillUser:

You sure like to push peoples' buttons, don't you.


Well sure.

You certainly wouldn't refer to God as a sadistic mofo if you were trying to be popular


People can be popular?!?
on Feb 06, 2006

You sure like to push peoples' buttons, don't you.

Actually, it gave me a chuckle.  I like button pushing.  If I didn't, I wouldn't respond to religious threads.  My favorite debates are the ones I care nothing about.  I have no use for religion, so "debating" it, in the form of getting somebody ticked off at me, is fun.

Of course, the beauty of online debates is that the other person has no idea if your words are true emotion or if you are simply saying things to push their buttons.

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