"If it's provable we can kill it."
Or, why I love my Demon so
Published on January 27, 2006 By EmperorofIceCream In Misc
How many different sorts of suffering are there in the world? And how many of them are innocent? I've no doubt there are many, and that asking how many forms can be described as innocent is akin to asking how many angels can dance on the point of a pin - not head, as is usually stated. A mathematical answer has been worked out (Link) but mathematics has no soul and can't be thought of theologically.

So be damned to it.

Participatory, sacrificial pain interests me. And the best, the most perfect, example of it is the suffering of Jesus Christ. But think about it. What does the story of the death of Christ tell us about God (as God appears in the Christian version). Mostly, it tells us that God is a mean motherfucker who'll torture his kid to death to prove a point. And yes, I can hear you saying "But the resurrection, the resurrection proves that God is really, really nice after all."

Except that Jesus continues to suffer even after his resurrection. After all, he was the Living Word, according to the Gospel of John, through whom all physical reality was made and in whom it subsists. Creation however longs for its redemption from corruption, it suffers the corruption that overtook the world when Adam fell and it suffers continually the redemptive agony of Christ (because Christ's redemption of the physical world has not yet manifested and so is ongoing).

As many a zealous Christian will tell you, every sin recrucifies Christ and every partcipatory act of innocent suffering (such as an animal under a vivesectionist's knife, or the random victim of violence, every child that starves to death, is tortured to death), is balm to his wounds and a step toward the coming Kingdom of God on earth.

Sure God's a nice guy. He made his kid the foundation of the universe, the substance of the universe - and then infected him with cancer. Then he made the boy a physical being and tortured him to death. And then resurrected him in a perfect imperishable body (a body made perfect for the reception of pain), a body that is still the substance of the universe, still cancerous, still suffering and constantly, endlessly crucified. Sure God's a nice guy. Sure.

There's another way of looking at it, of course. It doesn't involve Jesus at all - except as one more poor sod no different from the rest of us, apart from being more than usually afflicted by delusions of understanding (and in possessing the happy and useful knack of turning water into wine).

No, we're all God's kids in this version, just as we're all orphans, because this God has no more interest in us personally than any other artist does in the welfare or otherwise of his creations. Suffering is a color on the canvas, a thread in the tapestry, a note in the music. If the suffering of individuals has meaning it's only as part of some incomprehensible exercise in creation. And since such meaning is incomprehensible - then for us it doesn't exist at all. Certainly it doesn't exist in any sense from which we might draw comfort, or strength, or hope. In fact, to know that there is meaning, meaning that assuages, that satisfies, that redeems, but that we'll never know because we were made too dumb to understand it, could only ever be a source of despair. Better, by far, to believe that there is no such meaning - which is the root of all atheism, and the motivating terror behind deism, agnosticism, the cult of nature and the environment, and all such spineless, cowardly responses to any question involving God and suffering.

And any question that considers God and the world must involve suffering because there's just so much of it. Maybe not in your life, right now (though I'll guarantee almost all of you have suffered in the past and will again in the future) but in someone's life, somewhere. Go look at your TV. If you lick the screen you'll be able to taste the misery, like bitter honey, sweet in the mouth but foul in the belly....

Not God the child-torturer, the tormentor of a physical/spiritual universe, then, but God the Artist. Not indifferent to suffering but creating it according to an aesthetic impulse It alone understands. Not a nice guy, no, but not a bad guy either. In fact, not any kind of guy - an It that makes things, and prefers red above every other color.

Of course, there's another way of looking at things.

In this universe there's what you like, and there's what you haven't had enough of - but it has no moral dimension At least, not if morality is understood in terms of 'being good' (or 'saved', or 'justified by the blood of the Lamb') and equals going to heaven, while 'being bad' (whether that means extra-marital sex, or drugs, or whatever) equals going to hell. It has morality when 'morality' is understood as teleology - the fullest possible development of the individual in every way, and where the seeking of such development is virtue and refusing it is vice.

Not sin, vice. Because the God of this universe has no morality, no aesthetic, only Will. Will, Power, Knowledge. Perhaps it knows love - but if so it's love is as incomprehensible as its Will, and its loving attention is something best not aroused.

Unless, of course, you're prepared to look (the kind of look Burroughs meant when he called his best book 'The Naked Lunch', the look you give the meat on your fork when you see it as dead meat and not 'food') at what it is you like and what it is that you haven't had enough, and decide to pursue whatever you see with the implacable resolve to experience that thing to its most absolute extent.

That's the Universe I live in, now. I have a God, which has no name. I participate in its purposes without understanding them on the basis of desire and will, and having roused its loving attention I know I can't make it go back to sleep. Not that I'd want to: too much of horror and wonder has come into my life (though not yet to the full degree of what's been promised me) for me to do that.

If I suffer, I suffer because either I like what causes it or I haven't had enough of what causes it. I admit I'm my own worst enemy just as I admit I'm my own best friend. No one's coming to rescue me because the Universe and it's God are indifferent to whether I live or die - except insofar as I make myself most fully myself, and then only because in doing so I become, perfectly, one more fragment that makes up the perfection of the whole. And the whole is necessarily perfect, simply in virtue of being that thing that was willed by God. And as every good Christian (or Muslim, or Hindu, or Jew) will tell you, the will of God is perfect.

Why is this a religion of devils? Because love is not at its center, Will is, Desire is, Lust is - things not good nor bad in themselves but simply a part of me to be pursued and developed like any other part. And because, in me, Will, Desire, Lust - are all devilish in the objects to which they are directed.

Not so much as a conscious choice (just as I didn't choose to like vanilla ice cream above any other kind) but as a function of what I am - biologically, intellectually, spiritually. My Christ, if I was interested in having one, would be a negative Christ, the mirror image of the christian Christ, a combination of Baldur and Loki, a trickster who instead of dying for my sins died so that he could turn around and say "I died for you motherfucker. Now what are you going to do for me?" A God of exigent demands, and one who doesn't deal in rewards, or punishments - just in what we are, and what we want, and what we're prepared to do to get it.

But I have no interest in Christ anymore, not even in vilifying him, which was all that was left to me of my Christianity once I'd encountered the Angel in the sick greed of my lust, the Angel I serve with my flesh in rituals of sexual subjugation that I've only just begun to explore.

News Flash!! News Flash!!! News Flash!!!! Yes, people, the rumors are true!!!! Incubi and Succubbi really do exist!!!!!! And they make house calls!!!!

Like every good magickian I've traded everything I thought I was for the power that comes from knowing what I actually am (a moral monster and a theological lunatic). And it's in the converstion with the Angel that has grown from that realisation that I've begun the process that will lead to an unreason that, while it has lost the good of what it appeared to be formerly, retains the structure and appearance of what it was, and so still passes, among my friends and neighbours, for what they typically consider to be rationality. Like Mad King George I have discovered (or rediscovered) the power to seem.

In my religion madness and terror are the equivalent of love and good works, and salvation is not 'salvation from' but 'baptism into' a state of mind that while it's as exalted as any holy ecstasy, and as much an act of worship, is the antithesis of these things as they appear in the Christian story.

I'm a theological heretic, a post-christian Christian, in love with a Jesus of my own creation to precisely the degree that I'm able to murder him every day. Which is only to say that knowingly, in fulll complicity, and with the fullest awareness of the possibility of deception, I'm in love with the inevitability of my destruction.

Evil, be thou my good - vice be thou my virtue.

The only way I can imagine God now is as a blood-stained grin on the face of the Universe, lips parted a little, enough to show the crusted fangs behind them.

My religion is a religion of devils because it sees the necessity for a God who is the fullest expression of the reverse of the God most know in the forms of Islam, Judaism, Christianity. I am a disciple of the darkness that's at the heart of the light of God, and it's only a Devil who can see that darkness and appreciate its severe beauty. Not for nothing was Satan described as the most beautiful of all the first-born Sons of God.

It's the lips of the Angel (the Demon) I've come to know that have spoken these things to me. It's my virtue as a Magickian to understand that even though I believe everything I've learned to be true I also know it to be entirely false. The last thing is to realise that it doesn't matter. There's only what you want and what you're willing to pay for it. The more your willing to pay, the more you'll eventually have. And if you pay everything you can have everything - exactly what you want.

I want sexual terror without limit, suffered and inflicted, and an end to the World of Man - and I want to live long enough to see it burn.

Because a conversation is deceitful doesn't mean it isn't worth participating in and only an honest man will tell you beforehand that he's a liar, just as only a liar will tell you that he's honest. It's because my Demon (my Angel) is an honest liar and tells me that I will experience that terror without limit, will live to see the flames eat the world (all the while wearing that bloody grin, pale flesh gleaming and demanding in a darkness that's as much laughter and the presence of something else as it is the absence of light, as much treachery as it is satisfaction), it's because he speaks and tells me these things that I love him as I do.

Comments (Page 1)
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on Jan 27, 2006
. appearance dot
on Jan 27, 2006
I know your respect for my opinion is something less than nil, but here goes anyway.

I don't think it is really indifference, but a difference in perspective. What I considered "suffering" as a child was being forced to eat brocolli and clean my room. We are tied to this reality of linear time, and I don't think God is. We look at things as if they are preventable, as if a train is bearing down on us, when in reality from God's perspective it could look completely different, it might have already hit us, it hitting us might just be "reality" itself.

I've come to the conclusion that pain and anguish and suffering are just part of the experience. Translating the experience itself into whether it is fair or just or whatever requires a perspective that my senses and personal bias can't achieve. God might care, just like my parents cared when they made me eat broccoli, or stood by while I dealt with messes that I made for myself.

I know this, though. I can't envision a world where everyone died of old age, there was no sin committed, no wrongs done. It isn't that I relish wrongs and suffering, but it simply isn't possible for me to get my mind around the idea, even though I know I would probably be happier and safer there. I do believe that if God is "perfect", then what He does can't be wrong, or even callously indifferent.

I really can't sit back and decide how well He does his job or why He allows what He allows, because I can't see things from His perspective. That's what faith is, I guess. You choose to assume God is indifferent, I choose to believe He knows what he is doing, and leave Him to it. The difference, I think, is that you assume to be able to judge, whereas I doubt my perspective and senses enough to know I couldn't possibly do so.

on Jan 27, 2006
I can't tell you why, but apparently sin causes pain. Balance and perfection demand Justice and Justice is both Mercy and Punishment. We sin. We cause pain and suffering. Justice demands that there must be a punishment equal to the pain and suffering we cause. Mercy demands that we be forgiven for the pain and suffering we cause.

There is no reason to think that there can be perfection without balance. If God just waved His hand and forgiven us all of the pain and suffering we cause, that would throw off the balance perfection demands. Jesus Christ was born, He lived a life with temptation, pain, hunger, weakness, and sorrow as well as victory, joy, abundance and strength. He experienced life on this planet. Then, took on all the pain and suffering we caused. He satisfied the demands of punishment, so that there could be mercy. The balance was kept.

The most amazing and humbling part of it all was (at least to me), in the end, on the cross, Jesus said, "My God, My God, Why Hast Thou Forsaken Me!". In the end, every part of Jesus that was deity was gone. A man hung on that cross. Scripture tells us that God hid away in the deepest corners of heaven (not a direct quote). Jesus had to maintain the balance alone.

As far as the idea that He is still on the cross? That one I'll leave up to theologeons to tackle, but for me, I thought the whole point was that, the cross and the crypt are empty. Jesus wasn't on the cross when he appeared to Mary, nor when he appeared to the Apostles... Interesting article. Always interested to hear what others think.
on Jan 27, 2006
HAHAH.

I was going to write a response, but Baker said it far better than I could.

Thanks Baker.

on Jan 27, 2006
For the sake of discussion, I'm going to have to suspend disbelief.

I agree that the mind of a god is probably beyond human comprehension, BUT HE'S DEALING WITH HUMANS! Is the mind of a human beyond a god's comprehension? Is he unable to understand that we interpret many of his actions as cruel, and that it drives many of us away from him?
on Jan 27, 2006
Pfft, what a cop-out, you lazy wench!


Yeah I know....
on Jan 27, 2006

Mostly, it tells us that God is a mean motherfucker who'll torture his kid to death to prove a point.

I've had similar thoughts to that.  Not quite with those words, but the same meaning   The bible taught me a lot about hate and fear.  Not too much about love, though. 

I can't tell you why, but apparently sin causes pain. Balance and perfection demand Justice and Justice is both Mercy and Punishment. We sin. We cause pain and suffering. Justice demands that there must be a punishment equal to the pain and suffering we cause.

I just can't buy into that.  I have led a cleaner life than a lot of people I know, but I experience pain on a daily basis.  What sin could I have committed that has caused this?

There simply isn't an explanation of it.  There is no "balance" to how things happen.  I knew a person who was virtuous, caring, loving, and a Christian.  She died a terrible, painful death of bone cancer.  Is that a balance?  No, it either happens for no purpose at all (randomness of the universe) or the "equality" takes the sins of others and punishes the "good".  If that is the case, why would anyone what to spend eternity with that type of "god"?

 

 

on Jan 27, 2006
The bible taught me a lot about hate and fear. Not too much about love, though.


On one of my anti-religion threads, some believers said religion is not supposed to comfort people. That's their religion.

Preacherman posted a comment on one of Myrrander's anti-religion threads to the effect that it's the intellectuals who don't believe. I asked him, "So what does that make you?" He never replied.

As if intelligence is a bad thing. Yet, religious people take offense when they're called stupid for believing. Go figure.
on Jan 27, 2006
Adding what I have doesn't make this more comprehensible, nor is the addition meant in any way as an answer to anything posted prior to the addition itself.

It does make it more nearly satisfying to me, however.

I'll post proper answers to everyone who has commented tomorrow, or Sunday.
on Jan 28, 2006
I've always considered God to be a being with a very sick sense of humour; the kind of guy who thinks a trainwreck is funny, or would laugh at an old lady falling down the stairs but no longer has the stomache to do the pushing (there's been a reduction in the smiting in recent millenia...). Good company most of the time, but not someone you'd trust with anything valuable.

I don't think he's necessarily evil, or even bad, just indifferent to the suffering of others. Like those old dead guys say, a child with a puppy they no longer take much interest in. Jesus was a flea treatment that got overrun by parasites, mostly of the Church kind.

So I don't really worship, but in times of trouble it can't hurt to attempt to draw its attention. That way at least if I do end up dying it'll be funny to something.
on Jan 28, 2006
Karma:
I just can't buy into that. I have led a cleaner life than a lot of people I know, but I experience pain on a daily basis. What sin could I have committed that has caused this? There simply isn't an explanation of it. There is no "balance" to how things happen. I knew a person who was virtuous, caring, loving, and a Christian. She died a terrible, painful death of bone cancer. Is that a balance?


Like I said, I'm not sure why.

I also didn't mean balance or pain at a personal or physical level. Personal pain is a consequence of a physical body, not a punishment for sin. We can't possibly understand it all since we only have a finite view of the infinite. However, we are taught that God is perfect and there is no perfection without balance.

No, it either happens for no purpose at all (randomness of the universe) or the "equality" takes the sins of others and punishes the "good". If that is the case, why would anyone what to spend eternity with that type of "god"?


The only person who could have suffered pain for someone else's sins was Jesus Christ. Nothing any of us does can compensate for the universal pain our sins cause.

You also have to remember that what we personally (and our society) consider "sins" and "good" aren't necessarily what God considered "sins" and "good". In fact, the only real definition of "sin" I have been able to find is, "going against the will of God". Everything else seems too much up to personal and societal interpretation.
on Jan 28, 2006
It strikes me odd that people who can question if many/most "sins" are really "bad", somehow can't step out of the box and ponder the idea that most misfortune and suffering aren't "bad."

We've reached the point as a society where we take the ten commandments as suggestions, and yet hold God to some fundamentalist standard. Again, like kids who see being forced to eat brocolli as torture, maybe we just can't understand how meaningless all this suffering and death is in the great scheme of things.

This is where I could make a snide remark about some of LW's tastes, but I won't. I'll just say that of all people in the world, I would figure she'd be someone who could see the possibility that there might be more to pain and suffering than God's indufference or injustice. In reality, it might be just one more variable in the experience that is as necessary as any other.
on Jan 28, 2006
Yet, religious people take offense when they're called stupid for believing.


Yes, I do take offense, icono...because belief or unbelief does not make one "stupid" just as it doesn't make one "smart". I know many nonbelievers who are FAR more intelligent than I, and many believers far LESS intelligent...and vice versa. Your belief does not automatically confer intellectualm superiority, and making the general statement that it does is not only offensive, it's erroneous.

I don't get into the "faith debate" because it is exactly that: a DEBATE. I READ almost everything posted on faith, but I don't comment because, quite honestly, I don't have the right to belittle ANYONE's faith. I DO, however, have the right to defend my OWN, especially when otherwise intelligent individuals such as yourself use that faith as a justification to disregard my perspective altogether.
on Jan 28, 2006
LW: Wasn't trying to insult you, and you needn't have a thick skin. Just a little jab toward folks that appreciate a bit of S&M and yet oddly categorize God as something other than "good" when people suffer.

It just seems odd to me that people can form their own morality, question the good and bad of things on their own, but when it comes to God they refuse to judge Him by anything other than the definition created by the people whose definition of SIN they've already rejected.

Ponder this. Someone comes to you and says "God doesn't want anyone to suffer, all suffering comes from sin. God hears prayers and helps when he can. Oh, and sex is only for childrearing..."

People reject the sex part offhand. We grant ourselves the ability to say "Hey, God made us this way, it can't be exactly the way they say it is." On the other hand, we spend the rest of our time shaking our hands at the sky wondering why "bad" things happen to "good" people.

We are able to reject the Sunday School version of sin SOOOOOO easily, and yet we somehow cling like mad to the idea of death and sickness and such being "bad". Do I want to be sick? Nope. Do I want my house to be taken to Oz by a twister? Nope. Do I think God is either a) punishing me, or ignoring my prayers when it happens? Again, no.

If I have the ability to say that sexual urges are natural, then I have to accept that death and disaster are also natural. DO I credit God with not paying attention while I have sex? No, so why should I blame Him by saying he isn't attentive when something "bad" happens. In reality whatever tragedy occurs might be no more "bad" than the sex.

What if He is actively sitting there deciding who gets cancer? What if he says, oh, and we have Leukemia planned for little Suzie User today? That would only be "wrong" if we consider children dying to be wrong. Children die. Is it horrible to us? Yes. I can't for a moment say, though, that I have the perspective to say it is some sort of universal wrong, though. It might in all likelihood be necessary.
on Jan 29, 2006
Well. Such a wealth of comments (as I hope I've made apparent over the course of my irregular appearances in JU I don't write for comments, though they are welcome when I get them). And all of them pretty much on topic too.

To BakerStreet:

I know your respect for my opinion is something less than nil, but here goes anyway.


I respect your intelligence. Your disdain for the intelligence of others sometimes annoys me as it's accommpanied by a self-satisfaction in your own thought that's frequently unwarranted. But whether I respect your thoughts or not there's no need to preface your comment with something approaching apology. You, too, are allowed to make an ass of yourself on my blog.

As ever, on re-reading what I've written, I become both astonished and mortified by the way in which a moment of shining inspiration becomes reduced, in both thought and word, to something that bears only the faintest imprint of that inspiration. Nothing I've ever written here comes remotely close to those moments when the mind breaks free of its immediate circumstance and reaches out toward something it sees (metaphorically), that enlarges (for that moment) its comprehension of itself and the world it occupies.

That, at least in part, is why I write so rarely - it's wearisome to look back, after, and realize how little of that excitement, that expansion, had made it onto the page (or the screen, or whatever).

When I have one of these breakthrough moments they usually come in the form of a kind of mental shorthand. Some times it's an image, some times it's a phrase (as it was in this case - the phrase being 'a religion of devils'), some times it's a single word. The process of doing the actual writing then becomes one of explication, an explication to myself (which is why I write at all) of what it was I thought I saw.

Therefore it's no surprise to me that I've so rarely been understood in what I write in these 'pages'. If I have only a partial understanding of what it is that I experience in these moments of clarity then I have no cause to be disturbed when others misunderstand the partial excavations of meaning that I create in my writing about them. But even so, there's a limit...

I've come to the conclusion that pain and anguish and suffering are just part of the experience. Translating the experience itself into whether it is fair or just or whatever requires a perspective that my senses and personal bias can't achieve. God might care, just like my parents cared when they made me eat broccoli, or stood by while I dealt with messes that I made for myself.


I listed a variety of ways (including my own preferred version) in which the question of God's relation to suffering, the suffering of the whole of creation and not merely the miserable fragment of that creation we identify as human beings, might be understood. In the quote from your comment above you clearly understood a point that was in the back of my mind but which I had not made explicit. This is something you often do, and it's why I have respect for your intelligence. There have been moments in which you've proved quite helpful to me.

Pain and suffering, misery and death, are the basic qualities of human existence, spread across all epochs of human history and endemic to our condition as human beings. We were born to suffer, and then to die without having ever understood why it is we suffer. And that's precisely what we've done, ever since we attained the self-reflexive sophistication necessary to look at the world and question our position in it. The true curse of our humanity is this: we are sophisticated enough to appreciate our condition while being too weak to reconcile ourselves to it - and it's this inability to be satisfied and reconciled that is at the root of the religious impulse. We are religious because we are weak, and we are resentful because we have no means to overcome our weakness: and every god (from Mithras to Christ to Quetzalcoatl) who died to save us is as much a product of that resentment and that weakness as he was of some surpassing religious inspiration. We kill our gods because their visions have never had the strength or ability to save us in this life.

I do believe that if God is "perfect", then what He does can't be wrong, or even callously indifferent. I really can't sit back and decide how well He does his job or why He allows what He allows, because I can't see things from His perspective. That's what faith is, I guess. You choose to assume God is indifferent, I choose to believe He knows what he is doing, and leave Him to it. The difference, I think, is that you assume to be able to judge, whereas I doubt my perspective and senses enough to know I couldn't possibly do so.


If you believe that God is perfect his creation then becomes the best of all possible worlds - because the creation of a perfect being, proceeding as it does from perfection, must in itself be perfect. Unless you wish to think that there is in God some active malice that would lead him (or her, or it) to deliberately create imperfection. And on both grounds, all complaint is excluded since in the former case what is perfect cannot be complained against, and in the second since you believe God to be malicious the world is again just as it ought to be - a place of suffereing, misery and death.

At no point did I say that God was indifferent to his creation. I was in fact at some pains to point out that while God has no interest in us personally (except when we are foolish enough, or daring enough, to deliberately draw that attention to ourselves) he must of necessity be interested in the fate of the creation as a whole - in the way that an artist has interest in the whole of the canvas but no interest at all in the individual strokes of paint that go to make up the complete image he seeks to create. God has regard for his creation in the way of gestalt, not in the way of particularities. As to whether it's more arrogant to assume that you can simply 'let God get on with it', or to assume that there is a way to invoke the presence of God in your life (whether it be to your destruction or not) is another question, one I leave you to decide for yourself. I was always one to thrust my hand into the fire, if only to see how long I could bear the pain.
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