"If it's provable we can kill it."
Or logomachia - the struggle over 'truth'
Published on November 17, 2007 By EmperorofIceCream In Religion
There are very few benefits to the study of philosophy - other than coming to know the truth and falling in love with it, of course.

Other than that, the study of philosophy teaches you two things. It teaches you yourself, and it teaches you the world. Not the world as it actually is, of course, but the world as we consider it to be. I would like to tell you something, in all sincerity. Something that I have learned after (let's see, how long has it been?) close to twenty years of the most thorough, the most intense, the most fiercesome questioning.

There is no truth. If by 'truth' is meant a coherent and consistent explanation and answer to the most demanding, the most testing, of the questions that bedevil us as human beings. I know I have a certain reputation here. It's undeserved. I know no more than you do, and I am just as confused as you are. I admit I occasionally pretend otherwise: but that's all it is, a pretence. Like you I have my faith, my beliefs, and my opinions. And that's all I have.

I know no more than anyone else. And having said that, I know what I know with absolute certainty. Just as you do.

Let's consider this phenomenon. Why is there no truth? There is no truth because there is no single coherent explanation of the universe with which all agree. This was not always the case. For almost the whole of the known history of the West there was, once, a single coherent explanation for the universe with which all agreed. The first part of that explanation has to do with the advent of, and development of, Greek philosophy. Which to an enormous, and completely unacknowledged, extent still determines how we in the West view our existence. The most important determinant of the nature of the existence of life in the West, to this day, is the thought of Plato. Whether you know it or not, whether you agree or not, without the philosophy Plato originated, you could not as a child of the history of the Western nations, be what you are.

The second element in the determination of what we are is Christianity. Just as we cannot escape the shadow of Plato we cannot escape the shadow of the Christian revelation. This has nothing to do with whether we as individuals accept that revelation as true or not. Christianity has sculpted the world we live in in ways that have nothing to do with personal acceptance of religious 'truth'. If you disagree with me you have only to look at the American Constitution, which is the apotheosis and perfect fulfillment of the impulse to give religious revelation a political form. The only other document which in any way approaches this fulfillment is the Communist Manifesto - which is also an annunciation of religious revelation.

The only difference between them is that the society based on the American Constitution still exists, while that described in the Communist Manifesto never materialised. One is a success; the other an aborted failure - aborted by the intransigent will to power of Stalin, and the intransigent intellectual pride of Lenin. Neither of them were wrong. Nor were the founding fathers of the American Republic. Why? Because neither success or failure determines 'truth'.

What determines 'truth'? Nothing more or less than the will of the majority - not in any instant of time but over decades, centuries, millennia. The truth is what we all believe, consistently. Which is why the religious impulse will never fail in the face of the criticism of Atheism - even if it sometimes retreats. What we believe, we believe. And no one can argue us from it. This is as true of convinced Catholics as it is of convinced Protestants, as it is of convinced Buddhists, Jews, Zoroastrians. It is a perennial and unfailing truth of life as a human being. We believe what we believe, and what we believe is not in the detail but in the broad stroke of the religious brush. Yes, conversion is possible. But because we convert from one god to another does not deny the truth that we all believe in God.

Aye, from our very birth we believe on It, even those that deny It - because even those that deny posit something real in human existence that has to be denied. In denial is their faith. And I have no doubt that their faith will be answered.

'Truth' is only what we know, at any given moment. The truth of our time, the truth of our individual lives. And in that degree, all truths are true because none is a lie. But neither is there any true 'truth', and for that same reason. Who are you to judge and say 'this truth of my time, of my life, is true forever'. It isn't, as the changing 'truths' of humanity's historical existence demonstrates. Yet each of these 'truths' has been experienced as true. Who shall decide between them?

None but God.

And we are not God. Therefore, in every question of reality, of truth, of Divinity, there is no realistic option for the human being other than to keep silence - because what we know is only what we know, and what we know is incomplete. Do you want to know what blasphemy is? Blasphemy is to speak a partial truth concerning God. Because all partial truths are no more than idolatry, the worship of the thing we think we know.

None of this denies the power of the fundamental conviction that we are right. None of it denies the power of sincere belief. We have no idea of what is true. But we all know what it is to sincerely believe that we are right. To sincerely believe. We all know what that feels like. And we all know what it feels like to confront someone who just as sincerely contradicts what we know to be true. Generally, we hate them for it. Not because they contradict us but because they're wrong. Obviously, they're wrong. And you know what? They know they're wrong. They just won't admit it. And because they know they're wrong they're culpable. And that means we should kick their asses.

That in its essence is the ideological structure of all forms of hate, whether religious, political, or racial. We know you know you're wrong, but you won't admit it. So we're going to kick your ass. Because we're right, and you know we're right. But you won't admit it.

So. In relation to what we as human beings believe, all truths are true and there is no true truth. Equally, neither is there any justified hate. My truth is not true, and neither is yours. Why should I hate you, then?

In order to establish the true 'truth' there would have to be a place in which we could stand, from which we could view and compare all the competing claims of humanity as to what is 'true'. A place in which we could test every 'truth' against every other 'truth', in order to establish which most thoroughly and perfectly accorded with the lived reality of human experience. And not merely the experience of this moment of human reality but every moment of which we have a reliable record. Because there is no moment of human experience which is not, for those who lived it and knew it, a valid moment. Do you think that those who went to the Babylonian Temples, and worshipped God through sexual congress with the Temple Whores, did not engage in a valid religious experience? Of course they did. The fact that we deny the validity of that experience, as being outside our concept of divinely inspired sexual morality, says far more about us than it does about either the religious experience of the Ancients, or about religious experience per se.

Our experience of religious reality is one moment in that experience. Theirs is another moment. And there is nothing and no one to judge between them. They are both equally true and equally false. True, because they are existential realities that typify the religious realities of a given moment in history (people felt and people believed), people feel and believe). And false because necessarily incomplete, provisional and fallible. You don't know God, whatever your experience of It. You can't, because It's God and you're not.

Beliefs, faiths, hopes, ideals. They all have discernible structures They all work in certain identifiable ways. That's what ideology is -a structured belief system. As an example, Marxism is a Romance. So is the American Constitution. That's because 'Romance' in the political sense means 'a structure of human nature that leads toward the perfect outcome in history'. Both Marxism and the Constitution posit a type of Ideal Humanity that achieves the perfect society here on earth. The great difference between the two documents is that the Constitution is far more realistic in its understanding of human nature than is the Communist Manifesto.

Because these structures are discerible they are necessarily types of the imperfect. Anything that can be discerned by a mind is less than that mind, and all material minds that occupy the material universe are less than the immaterial entity that created that universe. Anything they can discern is of the same type that they themselves belong to: the type of 'less than that which is God'.

Anything imperfect is deceptive, because it is only a partial revelation of whatever it is in itself (Plato, again). And all things which are imperfect are equal in their imperfection, so that any 'partial truth' is a complete untruth.

As I said, all truths are true (being equally false because imperfect) and there is no true truth (because there is no criterion by which one could discriminate amongst them).

This is the origin of the logomachia that has consumed the West since Luther posted his 95 Theses on the door of the Church at Wurtemburg, and split the soul of Europe (of which you Americans are the inheritors) in two. With the advent of Protestanism, the social, intellectual, and political cohesion that the Roman Catholic Church provided was utterly lost. With it went all cultural and political certainty.

You're wrong and I'm wrong - but I'm right.

The coexistence of multiple certainties as to what is right and wrong is definitive proof that all such certainties are wrong.

This is the truth that philosophy teaches: we are what we believe. And what we believe is always completely true, and completely false. Which goes some way toward explaining what practical reality also teaches. That those who believe will kill those who don't .

Why wouldn't you? After all, they're completely wrong.

Comments (Page 1)
2 Pages1 2 
on Nov 17, 2007
There are very few benefits to the study of philosophy - other than coming to know the truth and falling in love with it, of course.


E.I.O.C.,
Personalizing the impersonal ?

Aeryck.


on Nov 18, 2007
Most noble empororoficecream, your words are deep and yet shuffled for such an easy question?

Question:"Why is there no truth?"
Truth is not contingent upon ones ability to explain or even understand truth. It is, not without question, still the truth!
One does not have to understand how or why fire will consume the flesh, only that if that one sticks his hand in a fire he shall know for certainty (truth) that fire will burn.

Truth nonetheless must have a foundation. It has been established long before you and I took breath or found a beat in our heart. Consider this your most noble majesty....1+1=2 This is truth, not contingent upon whether you and I believe it or even if we understand it. It is true and has been established by the laws of mathematics.

The question you thread poses is "does the study of philosophy in fact, teach us truth?

Christ said "I am the way, the truth and the life. If any man come to the Father, he must come by me". If philosophy or any other thought states that there is another way to God, other than Yeshua ha Massiach, it is not TRUE.... therefore one could surmise that the Word of God is Truth.

Quote:"Whether you know it or not, whether you agree or not, without the philosophy Plato originated, you could not as a child of the history of the Western nations, be what you are."
One has not ones being in the philosophy of Plato...... "except a man be born again...... I am the way, the truth and the life!" ......Not Plato most noble one.

"The second element in the determination of what we are is Christianity. Just as we cannot escape the shadow of Plato we cannot escape the shadow of the Christian revelation. This has nothing to do with whether we as individuals accept that revelation as true or not. Christianity has sculpted the world we live in in ways that have nothing to do with personal acceptance of religious 'truth'. If you disagree with me you have only to look at the American Constitution, which is the apotheosis and perfect fulfillment of the impulse to give religious revelation a political form. "

Your verbiage has nothing more than national ramification. We all know that a man is not a Christian because he is born in a certain family, or in a certain border.... "except a man be born again" Neither a man a Christian because he goes to church.... "except a man be born again" It is not the constitution of a nation that makes one a Christian no more that a book or ones teaching of philosophy, "except a man be born again"

Quote:"This is as true of convinced Catholics as it is of convinced Protestants, as it is of convinced Buddhists, Jews, Zoroastrians. "

True, they all may have their own philosophy, but that in and of itself does not constitute truth. There is a way that seemeth right unto a man but the end thereof is death....... "I am the way, the truth and the life"

Your most noble majesty, I have found that upon the canvas of life that both religion and philosophy often paint with the same broad brush.


Quote:"None but God"

That is why we must turn to the only source of truth emperor, the Word of God. For the Word dwelt among us and we beheld His glory. The glory of the only begotten, full of grace and truth". He is the Truth and His word is Truth.

.H.

on Nov 18, 2007
I know no more than you do, and I am just as confused as you are. I admit I occasionally pretend otherwise: but that's all it is, a pretence. Like you I have my faith, my beliefs, and my opinions. And that's all I have.


If you truly understand that you know nothing you have to be an Agnostic. Any other position, pretend or not, would be delusional.

What determines 'truth'? Nothing more or less than the will of the majority - not in any instant of time but over decades, centuries, millennia. The truth is what we all believe, consistently.


It doesn’t matter how many people believe something to be true, truth exist outside of human will, if we could will truth into existence we would be gods.
on Nov 18, 2007
if we could will truth into existence we would be gods.


But we can.
on Nov 18, 2007
Do as thou will


My Way

Old blues eyes..... link

Elvis has left the building... link

Aeryck.

on Nov 19, 2007

And we are not God. Therefore, in every question of reality, of truth, of Divinity, there is no realistic option for the human being other than to keep silence - because what we know is only what we know, and what we know is incomplete. Do you want to know what blasphemy is? Blasphemy is to speak a partial truth concerning God. Because all partial truths are no more than idolatry, the worship of the thing we think we know.



There is no truth. If by 'truth' is meant a coherent and consistent explanation and answer to the most demanding, the most testing, of the questions that bedevil us as human beings.



Something that I have learned after (let's see, how long has it been?) close to twenty years of the most thorough, the most intense, the most fiercesome questioning.



Who shall decide between them? None but God.


E.O.I.C.,

...and those who are bold enough to enter the secret closet.

Peace,
Aeryck.

on Nov 19, 2007

This is the origin of the logomachia that has consumed the West since Luther posted his 95 Theses on the door of the Church at Wurtemburg, and split the soul of Europe (of which you Americans are the inheritors) in two. With the advent of Protestanism, the social, intellectual, and political cohesion that the Roman Catholic Church provided was utterly lost. With it went all cultural and political certainty.


Hi Simon,

This idea only casts a shadow over an older war, the war between the flesh and the Spirit.

Aeryck.
on Nov 19, 2007
All of the foregoing, every comment, illustrates exactly what logomachia is. Opposing positions, constantly reiterated, without possibility of resolution.

Stubbyfinger - knowing you know nothing doesn't make you an agnostic, it makes you someone who knows the limits of his own understanding. And as the history of all the commonly favored religions shows we can indeed will something out of nothing. And yes, we are gods. Mortal gods. And if you can't grasp the mystery inherent in the contradiction, then the loss is yours.

And Aeryck? By all means play your games with multiple accounts and conversations with yourself. But refrain from doing so on my blog, please. If you have something to say, say it - but do it in your own voice. As to your conviction that the god of the Christians is the 'true' God? You're talking to someone who has known that 'god' in all its littleness - and rejected it. I was as much a Christian as a man can be. I brought the homeless off the streets into my home. I preached the Word from street-corners and pulpits. Short of being martyred for my faith I did all those things that the Tent-Maker exhorted his flock to do. And at the end, I realised I was talking to no one but myself - just as you presently are.

You are welcome to your Jesus, and may you have joy in each other. But I doubt. I never met a less joyful group of people than Christians.
on Nov 19, 2007

And Aeryck? By all means play your games with multiple accounts and conversations with yourself.


Simon,
Why not ask Draginol to check the IPs

Please Note: Hamartano is a preacherman (remember that alias) from Southern Alabama.

My comments are my own!

I know your whole story, and have met many who TRIED to be Christians and when it got too hard, they just went back to their old lives.

As I have stated in my last comment.


This idea only casts a shadow over an older war, the war between the flesh and the Spirit.


Out of respect for yourself and Sabrina, I am not going to post on your threads until this matter of the identity of Hamartano is sorted out.

Aeryck.

ps. Please let me know when you know.

on Nov 19, 2007

I never met a less joyful group of people than Christians.


There are only a handful, who PRAISE THE LORD! PRAISE THE LORD!   

Aeryck.

on Nov 19, 2007
As to your conviction that the god of the Christians is the 'true' God? You're talking to someone who has known that 'god' in all its littleness - and rejected it. I was as much a Christian as a man can be. I brought the homeless off the streets into my home. I preached the Word from street-corners and pulpits.


Even Judas Iscariot walked and talked with the Lord in the fullness of His grace and glory, but somewhere he missed the mark your majesty. One is not a Christian because of word or deed.but having Yeshua ha Massiach meet ones greatest need.... sin

.H.
on Nov 20, 2007

I stole Him from Jesus, yes I did. And Jesus can't have Him back. Not now, not ever.


Sabrina,

Everything you are telling me, you have told me before.

"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand." (John 10:27-28)

Either one is a naughty sheep who is being attacked by wolves, or visa versa.

Aeryck.


on Nov 20, 2007
Aeryck is correct. Being a christian is not an easy choice.

Being charitable is not easy - when charity is a matter of simply giving some of what you have, no matter how little that is, to someone who has less. When charity is not an action, but an attitude and a conviction that leads to acts which are not seen in public, which go unnanounced and unrewarded. By all means tithe. But give to others as well.

Christianity is difficult when righteousness is not merely the standard of the failure of the lives of others; when it becomes a standard that you know you will never meet, so that our shared failures become the measure of the mercy (which is also a form of charity, of caritas) which we all need.

Christianity is difficult when love ceases to be a form of moral and emotional blackmail, a form of manipulation and control, and becomes a willingness to die for another or others, not so that the other will look at you and say 'he or she must love me'; when it occurs, and serves, without being noticed or praised or held up as an example by which someone less loving may be rebuked and controlled and made to feel diminished.

Do I claim to have done those things as a Christian? Yes, in some degree, though never perfectly. I do those things to this day still - though never perfectly, and without claiming any more to be a Christian. And that's the thing that taught me that most 'Christians' are a sham and fraud - because even those who do as their 'Lord' told them to do, in actuality do no more than is appropriate to the naturally good man of Greek philosophy, the old unsaved Adam whom Christ was meant to redeem.

Where is the spirit of supernatural grace in your life, Aeryck? Not in your language here, on JU. Here, you do nothing but recite the weary shibboleths of your faith, just as KFC does, to the repugnance of many. You may know a 'truth', and you may know many scriptures, but where is the Life that Jesus exhibited (and even I will not denied that the words of the NT are filled with a superabundance of a certain kind of life) which brought comfort to those who heard him?

So, Aeryck. I have conceived a challenge with which to test you - you and the other godbotherers and hypocrites of JU who do so much in their 'preaching' here to disfigure the 'Christ' they pretend to believe in.

Look fot it either later today, or tomorrow.

And as to my having 'left' Christianity because it was too 'difficult'? You're welcome to it, of course.
on Nov 20, 2007
"Being charitable is not easy - when charity is a matter of simply giving some of what you have, no matter how little that is, to someone who has less. When charity is not an action, but an attitude and a conviction that leads to acts which are not seen in public, which go unnanounced and unrewarded. By all means tithe. But give to others as well.

Christianity is difficult when righteousness is not merely the standard of the failure of the lives of others; when it becomes a standard that you know you will never meet, so that our shared failures become the measure of the mercy (which is also a form of charity, of caritas) which we all need.

Christianity is difficult when love ceases to be a form of moral and emotional blackmail, a form of manipulation and control, and becomes a willingness to die for another or others, not so that the other will look at you and say 'he or she must love me'; when it occurs, and serves, without being noticed or praised or held up as an example by which someone less loving may be rebuked and controlled and made to feel diminished."

Very well put as to what the Christian life shouldn't be, and should be. I enjoyed the original article as well.
on Nov 20, 2007
That being said, I do remember a character named 'preacherman.' He was a blogger of note only because he matched you in psychosis and annoyingness, word for word, post for post. The fact that when you appear, 'he' appears has not escaped my notice, nor his tendency to go MIA exactly when you do as well. He always seems to be online when YOU are online, and I don't think I've seen him post on any thread where you are not also a participant.IPs can be spoofed, concealed, and generated by proxy-- but there are too many coincidences here to be ignored.If hamatarno (or whateverthefuckhisnameis) is our old friend 'preacherman' then perhaps YOU were too. Either way, you protest too much, and I will not be compelled to either aid in your deception or disprove it. You want help in the matter? YOU write to admin.


Yeah, Aeryck..... I feel like your dragging me behind you on a chain. Will you ever cut me loose?

little-whip the snakes in your head have clouded your thinking. Your head is full of confusion and delusion and all because you think Aeryck and I are the same person. Have you not seen a picture of him? I am offended? I am starting to wonder if the real problem is that you struggle with the TRUTH?

.H.
preacherman
.A.
hamsandwich
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