"If it's provable we can kill it."
Or, yes dear, mommie IS going to die
Published on March 18, 2007 By EmperorofIceCream In Misc
Locamama posted an article here (Link) asking if God cares. Before my response to her she received a couple of others offering sympathy and encouragement. I answered her as bluntly as I could: no, God doesn't care.

That's perhaps a little too blunt, left as it is. So here, as a primer for the puzzled and confused, is a more detailed explanation of my point of view.

I've written on the topics of faith and theology many times, engaged in many discussions of those topics here on JU. My responses to the articles of others, and the majority of my own writings, have been engaged with rather more specific issues and not with such a general question as why God does not care. In my mind that's the default position, the commonsense ground from which debate starts, so I've assumed it not thought it through.

I want to make certain issues clear. Do I believe in a personal Saviour? Yes. Myself. I am my own Jesus. I've already given an explanation of that thought here (Link).

Do I belive in God? Yes, but not the God of the Christians, nor in their 'Jesus of Nazareth'. Which is not at all the same thing as saying that I deny the existence of their god. In brief, I acknowledge and respect the existence of the godform Jesus. The godform Jesus (as opposed to Jesus Christ, the Son of God) has been created from belief in and fervent attachment to the doctrines of the Roman Catholic Church as these have developed over the last two thousand years. The godform doesn't originate in these doctrines, it originates in the faith of believers and in their will that Jesus must exist and must be the Son of God because their faith insists these things are so.

As I've said elsewhere, many other times: desire informs will; will compels reason; reason determines the means to accomplish the ends determined by will. Reason has nothing to do with the formation of the will, and nothing to do with the selection of objects to which the will directs itself. Reason is the servant of the will and there is no necessity that reason should (practically) or ought (morally) to include in itself any comprehension of what motivates the will. This is so because what motivates the will is desire, and desire and reason are utterly opposed.

What motivates desire? To ask that question is to come full circle. What we desire tells us who we actually are. What we are determines what we desire. In the end what determines us as self-relexive actors, what determines the kind of person we are, is the outcome of every factor of environment, genetic endowment, and personal experience that constitutes what we recognise as our own narrative of existence. We think what we are and we are what we think. More importantly and accurately, we are what we do, and our doing is determined by our thinking. As my mother-in-law says - wherever you go, there you are.

Or, put another way by another and very different woman - either you like it or you haven't had enough.

In essence, my faith is Gnostic in form, with the addition of certain aspects of Thelemic and Chaos Magick - aspects I have described here (Link). Some have called the Gnostics the earliest Christians, and within the enormous variety of Gnostic texts there is some justification for that assertion. It's not a question that matters to me or one in which I have any interest. Gnosticism can be viewed as a window into the earliest forms of Christianity -but it also has things to say that go beyond Christianity and include it as only one variant of an overarching state of reality.

What appeals to me in Gnosticism is the enormous, the unimaginably immense, gulf between the Nameless and Bornless Creator, and the perceptions, hopes, aspirations, fears, longings, terrors, of those elements of the creation that are able to reflect on their own condition and the condition of the universe they find themselves in. Because that space, that freedom, is entirely absent in Christianity, and it was that absence that first started me on my long march away from my former faith.

My, my. A heretic and an apostate. How do I live with myself?

The cosmology of Gnosticism is not simple. Between God and Its (not his, or hers, but Its) creation exists a vast existential gulf. That gulf is filled by Intermediaries that are referred to as Aeons. An Aeon is at once a person and at the same time a spiritual region in which are concentrated types of spiritual force. The Aeons are, I believe, the originals of all Angels, Demons, spirits; and at the same time the source of all motivation, of all forms of spiritual or mental action, to which all those parts of the creation capable of carrying them out, are prey. As the Man Jesus said - "In my father's house are many mansions."

What is a 'mansion'? It's a place, an abode. An abode is at the same moment a location; and the length of time one abides there; and all the actions, thoughts, desires, griefs, joys, fears, victories, defeats, that are associated with that place and that time. An Aeon is, in the Greek sense, the abiding genius of a locality; it is the condition (as in the condition of the men that a place breeds) of being, and it is the temper of a time. An Aeon is a real person who, in other words, exhibits all those conditions and realities of being that are denied by both Sociology and Psychology.

And, fundamentally and absolutely, an Aeon is the Other of humanity. The Thing not understood, the Thing seperated from, the Thing denied.

The major religions of the world insist that good works on earth lead to bliss in heaven and that evil works lead to torment in hell. Their adherents say that this must be so because if it's not there is no Justice in God, and without such an attribute God cannot be God.

Nonsense.

There is no requirement upon God to be anything but Itself, and what Itself is, is incomprehensible to the mind of the created being. What is incomprehensible cannot be judged, nor even known except in its effects - and its effects will appear senseless and contradictory. Even in the realm of the physical sciences. No? You don't believe me? Consider the Deists.

Deists believe that God made the machine (the universe), set it running, and abandoned it to the functioning of its inherent principles, principles that could be revealed by natural reason and exploited for the benefit of Man (this was long before the time of Heisenberg's principle of uncertainty, long before the days of quantum physics, in which light is both a wave and a packet at the same instant - depending on the perspective from which you view it). Einstein insisted that God doesn't play dice. I agree. God is less predictable than the fall of dice and utterly immune to our faculty of reason. IT, the Nameless and Bornless, is forever unknown to us and unknowable.

Theists (like our resident wannabe god-botherer and ineffably incompetent resident theologian, KFC) are insistent that God has a purpose for creation, that that purpose has been revealed through sacred texts, and can be known and comprehended by human beings. Which says far more about the arrogance of theists than it does about God. That purpose generally involves judging, and saving, and redeeming. They are welcome to their beliefs and I won't dispute them here.

I will say, simply, that according to my faith God is not a Judge, nor a Redeemer, and has no more interest in my affairs, or yours, than I have in the internal activities of an ant-hill. As I have said elsewhere, my God has no morality but an aesthetic. An aesthetic in which destruction and chaos is as valid as creation and order; an aesthetic in which the destruction of the earth and all it contains would carry the same order of importance as does a single brushstroke in relation to the canvas as a whole.

Do you care what happens to a virus? Do you care about the particular orbits of particular electrons around the nuclei of particular atoms? Such are we. But if It, the Source and Origin, is infinitely far removed from us and we from It, the same cannot be said of the Aeons (or angels, demons, spirits, whatever). Ancient scriptures are full of the insight that these Intermediaries take great interest in us. Genesis records the interest of the Angels in fornication with human women, for example; myths and legends record the activities of Incubi and Succubi. And I attest, as a Magickian, that I have invoked and known the attention of one such Intermediary and even recorded the nature of that attention in one of the articles I linked to.

Does God care? No, not remotely. Do the Intermediaries? Oh yes. And they care intimately. As yet, I don't even pretend to understand why. But its in this intimate interest that there lies the origin of every temptation, every revelation. And they are all true, every one of them. And they are all lies, every one of them.

It's not the status of some particular Revelation as fact that's important. What makes any Revelation important is the degree to which it can attract support, faith. It's the degree of faith commanded by any particular Revelation that determines the degree to which the Intermediaries pay attention to its worshippers. It's to that degree that miracles can be counted on to occur. Miracles are simply the outward expression of the life-force of faith commanded by any given religion. No faith, no miracles.

Which is why Catholicism and Islam, not Protestantism and Islam, are the two great ideological enemies of this Century. The Protestants are dead on their feet, as demonstrated by the schism wracked Anglican Communion.

God doesn't care, in my understanding of reality. But Others do. Since it's my understanding of my experience that these Others exist and interact with us, I must adjuge to God both the existence of these creatures and the possibility of interacting with them. If I can now, then others have in the past. There is no temptation on my part to think myself unique or specially privileged.

I know things others have known before me, and known in better degree and with greater command.

Because I don't believe that Jesus was or ever could have been the Christ, doesn't mean that I don't believe that Jesus worked miracles. I call myself a Ritual Magickian. So I believe in the reality of Magick and the power of the Magickian. If you were to ask me now who I thought Jesus was I'd have to say he was a wise man, a man who observed and understood the human condition with great charity, a man disciplined and committed enough to hold by what he believed without yielding to consequence, and a man capable of making his Will manifest in physical reality. Because that's what a Magickian actually does - makes his Will manifest.

The Jesus of the Gospel narratives is to me a man who spoke what he Willed. His particular appeal to me has always been that what he Willed was spoken into the world of spirituality and motives, a Magick of the interior world, a world transcending the flesh that I have always been suspicious of - with cause. I've written elsewhere of how deeply alienated I was from my own flesh.

I've written at length of Jesus because Jesus is the cental tenet, the cardinal element, of Locomama's faith in God, and it was her faith that prompted me to write in the first place.

Does God care? No. But Jesus might. If you love him enough. And don't think a lot. On the other hand, if you want something enough, enough so that your wanting becomes a will; and if your reason is willing to contemplate apparently irrational means by which to achieve what you want and Will; then those who fill the space between God and the creation just might answer you.

What needs to be remembered, always, is that the Magickian is not powerless to respond to that answer. God does not care but I do, and for their own reasons so do the Intermediaries. It is in that nexus of desire that the forces which shape the life of the world (as opposed to the Power that decreed the processes which govern the life of the world) come to be. What you do with that 'coming to be' in your own life is something only each individual can decide for him or herself. What's certain is in addressing how you come to terms with that 'coming to be' you have to confront the question 'does God care?' I took up that challenge and my answer to it is "No. God doesn't care. God doesn't care enough to laugh, and there is no reason why It should." The question itself is a valid existential enquiry that can serve many purposes, as well as being an immediate challenge to faith. How you respond, be you a Christian or not, depends entirely on who you are. And who you are depends entirely on what you want, and what you have the courage to Will."

Comments (Page 1)
2 Pages1 2 
on Mar 18, 2007
You certainly did flower during the course of the day. This is an interesting point of view. You put a lot of thought into this article, that is obvious, and I have to say I did enjoy reading it, it held my attention throughout.
on Mar 18, 2007
To: frogsleg

well that's always nice to know. Of no great interest, but nice.

Thanks.
on Mar 18, 2007
While I personally think your essay could have been boiled down to a much shorter article, I do agree with some points.

I do believe in the teachings of Jesus. I do believe in God. I don't believe He's actively involved in whether we buy Jiffy or some other brand of peanut butter. I don't think that God takes an active role in the daily lives of every person on this little planet. I'm sure He has a lot of other things to do.

I try to live by the teachings that Jesus tried his best to impart to us. I do fail a lot of times, but hell, I am human. I don't believe that God is some old bearded man sitting on a throne someplace outside this universe observing everything each of us do every day. That would be very boring.

I like to think of God as some scientist or an other-universe Edison that experimented with a concept and is observing the results. Somehow I think shit and piss aren't realities in His universe. After all, we are filthy creatures after all.
on Mar 19, 2007
Does God care? No. But Jesus might. If you love him enough. And don't think a lot. On the other hand, if you want something enough, enough so that your wanting becomes a will; and if your reason is willing to contemplate apparently irrational means by which to achieve what you want and Will; then those who fill the space between God and the creation just might answer you.


This is interesting. It's got an appealing humbleness to it. God doesn't care, but the saints (you call them aeons) might, so pray to them instead and then do what you have to do to get what you want. In one way it's almost a Catholic approach to divinity, with its idea of divine intermediaries and semi-divine power struggles over souls and fates.

If you can't even imagine your own perfect place in the universe, the circumstances that would result from the manifestation of your own will, how can you ever hope to do the things necessary to create that place?


That's very Buddhist. I think you've missed your calling being a magickian (how is that pronounced anyway? Ma-ji-kan, ma-ji-ki-an or magician?). You should have become a monk. I'm pretty sure this idea is a key facet of Indochinese Buddhism.
on Mar 19, 2007
To: MasonM

While I personally think your essay could have been boiled down to a much shorter article, I do agree with some points.


It's exactly as long as it needed to be to address the points I wanted to make in the way that I wanted to make them. As little whip says, I write for me, to explore at leisure certain ideas, and do so without paying attention to whether or not anyone else will derive understanding or benefit.

So I bloviate. Sue me.
on Mar 19, 2007
To: cactoblasta

In one way it's almost a Catholic approach to divinity, with its idea of divine intermediaries and semi-divine power struggles over souls and fates.


Except there's no power struggle involved. There's no competition for souls, or anything else, because there's no competition at all. No heaven of bliss, no hell of torment. No duelling god or devil to fight over us as if we are eternal trophies. No Judgement. No Redemption. No Salvation. And no point whatever to the whining entreaties of prayer.

Will what you want, invoke it, command it into being Above so that it will materialise Below. And then, since no one else but you and the Forces you've invoked and let loose are involved, there is no one to hold accountable except yourself. You can't 'give' a situation to God, and make God responsible for it, because God has no interest in it or you. You can't be given a situation by the Aeons because God has set us above them to command them - they can give us nothing in the sense of imposing a responsibility or accountability upon us. They may tempt us to command them in ways that lead to our undoing; but it's we who respond to that temptation, and no one else, and we who are responsible for its outcome.
on Mar 19, 2007
To: little-whip

That freedom can be hard to deal with (frightening, even) due to the sheer volume of possibilities it exposes.


As ever you're the only one who gets anything of the reality of what I'm talking about (which isn't surprising as you were my first teacher in these things and have experience of them yourself, which these others don't).

I remember that, as the first shock of my first conversion wore off, I noticed a distinct change within myself. I was no longer free inside my own head. I had invited something else within me and, as I viewed that something through the lenses both of my early training as a Catholic and later through the veils of teaching thrown across the experience by my fello believers, I found it to be antagonistic, constraining, a thing to be supplicated and bribed.

Whereas before I had been King over myself (but had had no idea what to do with that Kingship) now I had been ousted and a new King had come - or so I thought because so I was told by people I assumed to have had the experience that I had had.

Now I'm not so sure we had any experience in common except a shared confusion, which we each tried to reconcile and dispel by filling our heads with 'teaching'. Teaching accepted, mostly, because others had accepted it before us, vouched for it, and made it popular. Teachings that changed over the months and years that followed as schools of thought became fashionable and then fell out of favor.

I was told that a good Christian is responsible to God before anything else - but never responsible to himself, and that part of that responsibility is abandoning the self to God, to be lead by the Holy Spirit like a whipped dog on a leash.

And soon enough that ceased to satisfy and I began to think and ask for myself again. And every time I asked and was answered I felt more and more that to be a Christian was to be a slave - not to God, but to the prevarications, contentions, disputes, fears and follies of men who knew no more (and often less) than I did.

Being a Christian is the death of thought and insight, unless that thought and insight follows approved paths and comes to approved conclusions. So far from being set free by the truth of Christianity, I had simply become another kind of slave.

I don't say that Magickians are not slaves; it's just that the bars of their cage are set at an infinite remove from them and the space within them is theirs to do whatever they can desire and will to do, without consideration (unless they choose to consider such things) of right and wrong.
on Mar 19, 2007
If you were to ask me now who I thought Jesus was I'd have to say he was a wise man, a man who observed and understood the human condition with great charity, a man disciplined and committed enough to hold by what he believed without yielding to consequence, and a man capable of making his Will manifest in physical reality. Because that's what a Magickian actually does - makes his Will manifest.


How you respond, be you a Christian or not, depends entirely on who you are. And who you are depends entirely on what you want, and what you have the courage to Will


So, if I will something strongly enough I can make it happen? Can I make my back heal by force of my own will? Can LW heal her ra by force of will and why hasn't she already done so? What's holding her back from her miracles - does she really not will herself to be free of her ra or does she want to be in pain?

Maybe I just don't understand your faith...


on Mar 19, 2007
It's so much easier to just be a Christian, because then you don't have to face these choices, you don't have to own your morality (it comes pre-packaged and pre-defined) and you certainly don't have to take personal responsibility for anything, ever. All blessings come from God, all evil comes from Satan and mankind is just a helpless little pawn in some cosmic competition to see who can get the most souls.


What makes a magickian any more responsible for their morality? How do they define morality? Personal choice? What makes a magickian responsible? How does law come into play? What would will them to follow the law?
on Mar 19, 2007
To: Question of the Day

So, if I will something strongly enough I can make it happen?


You can if you know what it is you want. You mention little-whip's RA. "A house divided against itself cannot stand." She hates her flesh. I'm half-inclined to believe she called it (the RA) down on herself through the fixed nature of that disposition. Just because you're sick it doesn't automatically follow that you want to get well. And if you don't want a thing you won't will it. But you may well will it away.

So yes, if she willed it through Ritual, and gave no thought to it afterward, she could rid herself of the RA. So could you, if you had it, and if you understood why belief is simply a tool to achieve desired effects. But first you have to know what you want; or what you desire will shape your will after itself, so that when you get what you want it will seem just like an Act of God, mysterious, and something for which you can't be held to account - even though there is no one to hold to account but you.

Maybe I just don't understand your faith


Did someone say you had to?

on Mar 19, 2007
To: Question of the Day

What makes a magickian any more responsible for their morality?


You're partly answered in the response above. But to be explicit - if belief is a tool to be consciously used in the pursuit of effects, then the one responsible for actively using those beliefs, and for the consequesnces both intended and otherwise of those effects, is the Magickian. There is no one else to be responsible, no one else to blame in excuse, but the Magickian himself. Insofar as he understands his position and exercises his choices in the light of that understanding he is automatically honest and automatically has integrity.

Honest, because all his choices and actions can only be attributed to him without possiblity of disguise or excuse. And having integrity because all his choices and actions are formed out of his desire and his will.

How do they define morality?


They? I can only speak for myself. I define morality by what I want - in the final analysis. Most would not consider that moral. But I'm not bound by your standards - except inasmuch as it's in my interest to appear as if bound by them.

How does law come into play? What would will them to follow the law?


What 'law' are we talking about? The 'law' of magick? There are such laws, but I refuse to acknowledge them. The law of the land? Of course I'm motivated to obey the law - especially in those instances where the chance of being caught and punished outweighs whatever benefit I might gain by breaking the law.

Magick works in accordance with the realities (including legal reality) of our existence, not against them. Which is why you should always be careful what you wish for. Go read 'The Monkey's Paw' if you doubt me.

on Mar 19, 2007
There is no one else to be responsible, no one else to blame in excuse, but the Magickian himself. Insofar as he understands his position and exercises his choices in the light of that understanding he is automatically honest and automatically has integrity.


Honesty and Integrity are hard traits to come by. Most people I know aren't either on many occasions - Christian or not (Including myself) - even when held accountable regardless of by self or other (law/God). I have a hard time believing that there is anything automatic about either.

Many people are not honest with themselves. What do magickians say about self-deception then? Have you read "People of the Lie?"

I define morality by what I want - in the final analysis. Most would not consider that moral. But I'm not bound by your standards - except inasmuch as it's in my interest to appear as if bound by them.


So, if you wanted to kill someone and willed it and were able to do it without getting caught (which happens often enough) you would do it?

It sounds to me like your 'morality' is simply free will, but doesn't something guide your behavior besides the threat of law?

There are such laws, but I refuse to acknowledge them.


OK, so you refuse to acknowledge them, but what are they?


Oh, one more question are you and LW married? monogamous?
on Mar 19, 2007
To: Question of the Day

Honesty and Integrity are hard traits to come by. Most people I know aren't either on many occasions - Christian or not (Including myself) - even when held accountable regardless of by self or other (law/God). I have a hard time believing that there is anything automatic about either.


There is nothing else for honesty and integrity to be, except automatic, in the way that I've formulated it - which is simply a less compact form of the line in Hamlet : This above all: to thine own self be true, And it must follow, as the night the day, Thou cans't not be false to any man.

If you know that you alone are responsible for everything you do, and act with that in mind, you are honest even when you lie. If you know that everything you do has its source in your desire (not in circumstance, or in pressure placed on you, or in anything external to you) then you have integrity even as you deceive everyone around you. And if you know that the 'law' of your behaviour resides in you and in nothing else, then you are free even as you appear to others to be in chains.

Many people are not honest with themselves. What do magickians say about self-deception then?


They say (or this one says) that they are as prone to self-deception as anyone else. But this one, at least, is more aware of that tendency than most and combats it the only way one can - through honest self-examination. And no, I haven't read 'The People of the Lie'.

It sounds to me like your 'morality' is simply free will, but doesn't something guide your behavior besides the threat of law?


Would I kill someone? Yes, if killing a person was worth enough to put all my liberty at risk for it. If someone's death was worth so much to me then I would kill even without the certainy of escaping punishment. As I said in my 'I was a Childhood Bully' thread, I came close to killing another child - what stopped me was a well-developed sense of survival and the knowledge that, in that instance, the satisfaction of doing what I wanted wasn't worth everything I would have risked.

If by 'free will' you mean capricious, ungrounded choice then I completely disagree with you. If by 'free will' you mean a pattern of decisions that are generally consistent over time and which are motivated by character (which itself is a pattern of behaviour that is generally consistent over time and which constitutes an overall attitude to the world - a Weltanschauung) then I would agree with you. My character determines how I respond to the world: I am my own guide to conduct, because there is no one else to guide me.

OK, so you refuse to acknowledge them, but what are they?


If I refuse to acknowledge them why would I devote any time to discussing them? And yes, little whip is my wife - as to whether we are monogamous or not: mind your own damn business.

on Mar 19, 2007
Did someone say you had to?


Nope, I'm just curious is all. I like to consider the things that challenge my thinking the most.

as to whether we are monogamous or not: mind your own damn business.


I couldn't help but laugh at this one. Good answer.   

I was just wondering what the reason for marriage would be. In my mind it's either moral or law. What do you think about this? And would the normal 'rules' of marriage apply? How do the wishes/needs/feelings/truths of another person play into your magickian beliefs? Does it impact your behavior?

I can't make any sense of your idea that lies are honest. How can self-examination be of any benefit if one lies to his/her self? Can you think of a concrete example that might help me?

I'm really just trying to explore your beliefs to try and understand more. I hope you take in it that light. I'm not trying to judge you are anything like that. I like to think of myself as a relative open person when it comes to educating myself about the world and its people.

If you know that everything you do has its source in your desire (not in circumstance, or in pressure placed on you, or in anything external to you) then you have integrity even as you deceive everyone around you.


Well, do you think that a magickian that goes out and rapes little girls is justified because it was his desire? He lies about it and yet he's honest and has integrity? Where does one draw the line? Is there no line?
on Mar 19, 2007
To: Quote of the Day

Where does one draw the line? Is there no line?


Of course there's a line. It's where you put it, because there isn't anyone with true authority to tell you where it goes, except yourself.

I'm going to bed now. But I'll get back to this tomorrow.

2 Pages1 2