"If it's provable we can kill it."
Or, you better believe your sinful ass is condemned to hellfire and damnation...
Published on July 17, 2006 By EmperorofIceCream In Religion
On my Conversion thread (Link) little-whip, my wife, had this to say about me:

"Simon was the Penultimate, tongue-speaking, foot-stomping, slain-in-the-spirit Pentecostal for five years, and that was after He spent FOUR years as a Fire-Breathing Street Evangelist, accosting unsuspecting sinners wherever He could find them and telling them ALL about their condemned asses. One poor sap was cowed, teary eyed, into a corner after being the victim of His evangelistic derision for.....wearing a crucifix as an earring. (I'll leave Him to expound on why He found it so offensive at the time....)He was a zealots zealot, or at least He was until other zealots found Him too intimidating to associate with, [...] and He didn't waste His efforts hanging out in chat rooms and internet forums, He took it to the STREETS."

Now so far as this goes it's a pretty good characterization of how I was at that time - what it doesn't capture, however, was the maniac frenzy with which I conducted my evangelization of the godless Lost - who included everyone who didn't believe as I did, especially those Christians of other denominations, whom I regarded as utter heretics and would happily have burnt at the stake (I'm not at all exaggerating but being perfectly serious here - that was my sincere opinion regarding the proper treatment of unrepentant heretics) unless they recanted and accepted my Jesus as their Jesus.

Let me say at the outset - I have not a single conversion to my name. Even at the time this didn't disappoint or perturb me, because I didn't consider evengelizing to be my calling. What I was called to do, or so it seemed back then, was work with those who already believed, were my brothers and sisters in the church. I had ambitions to rise within the hiearachy of the church to which I then belonged. I was getting a name for being biblically very well read, doctrinally sound and committed while being radical in the good sense - that of being willing to do street work and sometimes to do it outside the congregation and the church and off my own back.

I once brought home two street-bums, fed them, let them bathe and wash their clothes, and spend the night. I swore my wife to secrecy and continued to befriend these two while telling no one else in the church, until things got out of hand and I had to go to my congregation-leader for help and advice. How that episode influenced their later lives I can't say but it certainly didn't make immediate converts of them. The situation I'd needed help with resolved itself and the two of them drifted away, and I still said nothing nor allowed my wife to speak of it.

That wasn't done consciously to promote my profile in the congregation and the church, but that's the effect it had because my congregation-leader announced the fact in our care-group (the smallest sub-cell of the church and the basic units of the different congregations). He wanted it known as a testament to my practice of our church's understanding both of charity and evangelization. He made his announcement weeks after the event and very close to Christmas because he'd waited to see if I was going to boast - the fact that I hadn't made a significant impression and later bought me influence I wouldn't otherwise have had.

That wasn't why I did it, but was the result of it all the same.

My successes in this field and others within the church community itself meant that my lack of result in terms of converts had no real impact on me. I undertook street-work not because I was good at it but because I thought of it as part of the foundational work of any christian - you tell people about Jesus because he's your Lord and Saviour and because he's redeemed you from sin.

The recognition of those things is the only properly christian motivation for evangelization there is - and honest evangelizing is no more than personal testimony plus the verbatim preaching of the gospel message; that Jesus is the only name on which a man may call in order to be saved. Like all good zealots I did what I did because I loved my God and wanted to serve Him (God was definitely male to me then, rathen than the IT it is to me now) in every way and at every opportunity - but I wasn't unaware that doing what I was doing was gaining me favor and promoting my interests in the church.

Zealotry requires double-think in a lot of areas. Since I did indeed want to advance within the church - I wanted to be a congregation-leader (they exerted tremendous influence over the lives of their congretation-members and were privy to all kinds of secrets, and were much more 'face to face' than the Elders) - I had to pay attention to what would promote that ambition, and at the same time deny that I was being ambitious. I was serving God in the ways I best could. It just so happened that they were all ways that were deeply unpopular with everyone else and that brought me to the attention of those I needed to cultivate if I was to succeed.

Some things were unpopular and didn't get you noticed - like taking part in the cleaning roster or in the general administration of the church - and those things I was never involved in. I went to every meeting. I attended every 'class'. I participated in prayer-groups and prayer-meetings, in care-group and congregation. But I never did anything resembling work - because I'm lazy, and that wasn't what got you noticed by anyone except the other drones.

There is a hierarchy of work in the church, just as there is in any organization. According to the Tent Maker that hierarchy is this -

1Cr 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

If some believer, some zealot, tells you that he is a prophet, or does the work of a prophet, or a teacher, or works miracles; then often the response of the non-believer is to say 'What arrogance' because it seems to the non-believer that the believer has made a totally outrageous claim of parity with figures such as Isaiah or Jeremiah. But the believer will tell you that he or she is in fact humble rather than arrogant and that no such claim is being made - because the inspiration to teach, or prohesy, or work miracles, as well as the power to do all these things is of God, not the believer. And the christian in question almost certainly at a conscious level believes this to be true - while all the while keeping at bay the recognition of an ulterior motivation that is in fact the engine of his zealotry.

This is why those who think that Christians of the fundametalist, charismatic and evangelical sorts are simple-minded couldn't be further from the truth. You need to be intelligent to practise that kind of self-deceit. Smart enough to know what it is will promote your goals, your agenda, clever enough to recognise the people you need to cultivate and to go about cultivating them in the right ways, and determined enough to carry through with whatever you have to do to gain the right kind of attention even if that's something distasteful to you.

Actually, even though I never achieved a single success, I always enjoyed street-work. I had no respect for the intellectual capabilities of the upper levels of the church hierarchy, I detested their sermons, and largely disliked the congregational meetings, and even more the meeting of the whole church in one place that occured once a month. I continued to attend because I was committed to the church's interpretation of the gospel - and because it was then the largest and most influential church in the city. So street-work came as a welcome alternative (occasionally) or an entertaining supplement to (as was mostly the case) the regular meetings and activities.

On one occasion I conceived, organized and ran (with my congregation-leader's willing consent this time) a street-action (as we called them) It was based on this verse:

Isa 55:1 Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price.

This action was carried out by volunteers from my care group (there were 18 of us, excluding the care-group leader and his wife, and 9 of us participated). We bought loaves of bread and flagons of milk, put up trestle-tables on a main junction of a major thoroughfare in the town, hooked up a sound system, and proceeded to hand out bread and milk while giving away bible-tracts, while I harangued passers-by on the theme of eternal damnation as the price of sin.

I've never been intimidated by public speaking, I can be articulate, passionate and eloquent. And since my text came from Isaiah I was very Old Testament in my approach, emphasing judgment, wrath, and damnation. Jesus barely got a mention, except as the key that let you open the only door out of hell. Very little of the love of God, very much of fury and judgment directed at the sinners of the city and their wicked ways.

Zealots love drama and the OT is far more colorful and dramatic in its drama than is the New Testament. The New Testament is primarily about the work of being a Christian, about faith and works in the real world. The Old Testament is about the pyrotechnics, about plagues and war and genocide and miracles. It's a far more useful series of books for the zealot that loves the sound of his own voice than the gospels. The dramatics and the fireworks allow for a truly oratorical performance - and if that tends to impress those who already believe and can appreciate the nuances of the performance - rather than actually gaining converts - then that's all to the good of the purpose the oratory serves, promoting the preacher and not the word that's preached.

I believe, now, that all zealots come to share this fundamental dishonesty in the end, even if they don't start out that way. I didn't. In the incident my wife refers to, in which I browbeat and cowed a young man, the rage that fuelled my onslaught was genuine. I was outraged that anyone could or would wear a crucifix as an ornament rather than as a declaration of faith. He wore a tiny cross in the lobe of his left ear. I was attending a vocational college in my hometown at the time and I preached my first hellfire and damnation sermon in public, that day, in a hallway of the school, in front of a mezmerised and horrified audience of 17 year olds - many of whom knew my sister, who attended the same school. She was near-mortally embarrassed by the incident and forever after denied that I was her brother, or had anything to do with her, if the episode was ever mentioned in her presence.

I was an honest zealot then, enraptured by my God and blinded by a truth I knew others could see as well as I - it was just that out of sheer perversity they refused to acknowledge it. And I was determined, from the very beginning, to confront them with what I even then considered to be deliberate and knowing disobedience.
This is also an engine of zealotry - the conviction that those who don't share what drives him actually know and believe, deep down, what he knows and believes in public - but will not admit to it out of perverse wickedness. And in the beginning it is a conviction, sincere and honest, and all the more dangerous because of it. Some zealots become fanatics precisely because of the repeated refusal to admit what he knows to be a self-evident truth.
I became a dishonest zealot when I finally found a church I could commit to and in which I wanted to be fully involved - on my terms and in pursuit of my own agenda. Not all zealots come to that expression of dishonesty. Some go on to murder in the name of their religion as a cause; some simply find a soap-box and preach from it at every opportunity - all the while piously referring to their vanity as prophesy or teaching which, in their humility (humility being a part of christian piety) they attest comes to them from God because, after all, they're only vessels.

Just as in my case, these soap-box prophets achieve nothing by their prophesying, and take the sting from their failure by saying that they have no responsibility for conversion because conversion comes from God, not from men. Just as in my case they ignore the testimony of the New Testament which, in books such as Acts, records that thousands upon thousands were converted at the preaching of the Apostles; which records that thousands listened to Jesus as he preached and turned away from their previous lives in consequence of hearing him speak.

It's true that not everyone is an Apostle, and that every Christian is subject to the Great Commission - to go into the world and make disciples of all men - but even the least well equipped to evangelize can ensure that when they do preach the word of God their preaching doesn't actually repel their hearers.

True zealots of any faith are marked by this lack of success, and by their complete indifference to it, just as I was. I was not responsible for what happened to the seed once I'd thrown it on the ground. Those who heard me were responsible. And if they failed to convert, or refused to convert, then the fault was in them, in their hardness of heart, and they were to be held accountable not me.

What feeds the zealot is not success but attention. The more you respond to them (whether that response is in the form of ecstatic conversion or outraged repudiation) then the more they will claim success - because the Word (whatever it may be) is being heard. If the Word is preached and heard then the believer's obligation is satisfied; leaving the soap-box prophet or teacher to bask in the attention of the unbelievers and the approbation of those who believe as he or she does.

Of course, the zealot may measure success in other terms: in bodies blown apart, buildings destroyed, politics hijacked and democracy thrown into confusion; but still the Word has been preached and heard, and after its preaching there is the warm fuzzy glow of knowing that everyone is fixated upon you, enemies and friends alike, your agenda advanced, your goals brought just a little closer to being realized.

It was of such people that Jesus spoke when he condemned, in the Gospel of John, those Jews who prayed in public and made enormous show of their piety. Son of God or not, he was right when they said they already had their reward. I was one of them, a long time ago, and I know I got what I wanted, what I deserved, and what I had earned.

In the end I became sickened by such rewards, which is why I am no longer a zealot. As to why I'm no longer a Christian there are many reasons. Two of them are that I became aware of the vanity and culpability in myself that is a principle drive of all kinds of zealotry; and another is the realization that such vanity and culpability is a vital part of Christianity itself. To be Christian, except in rare instances, is to be vain and culpable - and the only way to avoid that vanity and culpability is to flee the religion itself.

Comments
on Jul 17, 2006
. appearance dot
on Jul 17, 2006

and at the same time deny that I was being ambitious.

I'm a little unclear......Why do you believe wanting to advance in and do well in life while being a Christian is wrong?  Even if that advancement is in the church?  I understand why you have a problem with advancing in the church if that is ones sole goal.  If one uses manipulation and insincerity to get there, then again I see the problem.

You said:

That wasn't done consciously to promote my profile in the congregation and the church, but that's the effect it had because my congregation-leader announced the fact in our care-group (the smallest sub-cell of the church and the basic units of the different congregations).

So I can take from your original intentions that obedience to Christ was your aim and this was a "side effect."  God does not save all rewards for heaven.  With my belief, I don't have a problem with your leader building you up...or using you as an example.  I can see teaching and learning and growing in Christ coming from the example you set.  Just as I wouldn't have a problem with him sharing what went wrong (with your permission)...again it is good for instruction.

I submit that somewhere along the road, when your passion cooled and your desires to raise in the church outweighed your desire to obey and please God, you were on your way out of the faith.

Don't think I say that as a judgement...just an observation from the things you wrote here.

I think most Christians go through periods of time (I do at least) when what I want outweighs my obedience to God.  (Some turn away and some turn back.)  I am usually the last to realize it...but there are usually red flags along the way.  For me, I get cynical about the church, the people in it.  I find myself wondering what the heck so and so was thinking coming to worship a Holy God in that outfit.  Or, blowing off other people's heart ache with a glib "Give it to God."  (Not that I think there is anything wrong with this as an ingredient to a recipe for success....but when it is the sole ingredient in a situation that begs for more, it usually doesn't work.)  Or I start talking about the lack of "love" in a church meanwhile missing that the lack of love is abundant in me.

I think there are good avenues for zealotry but none of them involve other people.  Being a zealot about spending time with God every day, being a zealot about being the best husband in Christ, being a zealot about prayer, etc.  Those things are zealotry turned inward.  Not for the world to see and hear, only for God.  Will others benefit from it....probably but that's ok...God never said obedience to Him was without benefits.

Let me say at the outset - I have not a single conversion to my name

I would be one of those Christians who doesn't "really care" if I have a conversion.  I do believe as long as one is faithful in their witness for Christ He does the rest.

Nothing anyone coulda said to me before I became a Christian coulda made me one.  In fact, the more people SAID the less likely it was to happen.  That whole process was between me and God and was an internal and private thing.  He wooed me privately and occasionally someone publically would reinforce what God was telling me in private.

No man can say without lying he "converted" me to Christianity.  He can say he was present, a witness, when I made the public declaration, but he had no part in the time before it or the time after, nor in the actual decision itself.

IF someone ASKS or if I am compelled by that still small voice to share, then I will share my testimony.  But I don't force feed it on anyone because it just turns people off of Christ.

I don't believe I can keep one soul from coming to Christ who is not meant to come to him, nor can I bring one to Him that does not belong.

So that is what I mean when I say I "don't care"....I care in that I want people to know the joy and love I have with Christ in their lives, but I am not going to worry myself sick over it because I remember how HE wooed me.  And I am not any more special than anyone else...so I believe He will do the same to others.

on Jul 18, 2006
To: little-whip

So many of them seem repulsive that I think the 'gift' is far rarer than you think.


That's actually a part of it. The more repulsive they are in the eyes of the world then the nearer they are to God's holiness and purity, the greater the opportunity God has to convict the godless Lost through the words with which he inspires the evangelist; and the more repulsive their words (and therefore the more they differ from the world) the greater is the chance that the difference of God will be made manifest.

They have no responsibility to convert, only to spread the word. If their words are repulsive it's because they are too holy to be tolerated by the sinning masses.

I told you, it's a form of double-think that requires a certain intelligence, and a certain twist to that intelligence, to be able to support. It applies to your further comments as well. No one treats this in the way that businesses operate because no one thinks of evangelization as a business: sinners are not customers and evangelists aren't salesman.

The closer their words are to God's Truth then, of necessity, sinners must be repelled - and it's only God's grace that can draw them to the truth of Salvation that waits behind their words. Or so they think.
on Jul 18, 2006
It's true that not everyone is an Apostle, and that every Christian is subject to the Great Commission - to go into the world and make disciples of all men - but even the least well equipped to evangelize can ensure that when they do preach the word of God their preaching doesn't actually repel their hearers


Many Christians are "going", but few are "making disciples". I am developing my thoughts on the matter and will try to put together an article on my feelings on it before too long.

Excellent article, emp...somewhere between the zeal of the evangelist and the hardened heart of the "backslidden", I believe, lies the truth.
on Jul 18, 2006
To: Tova7

I've waited awhile to respond to you because I wanted to think about what you had to say. Something in it struck me as a truth about myself without my being sure of what that truth was. Hence the delay.

Why do you believe wanting to advance in and do well in life while being a Christian is wrong? Even if that advancement is in the church


This is almost your first sentence and it goes to the heart of what I found odd in your post - odd, but truthful. The simple truth is that I'm still subject to the zealot's conviction that the only true purpose is a pure purpose. And by purity I mean a purpose untainted by anything extraneous to itself and particularly anything that could be considered 'selfish'.

I can take from your original intentions that obedience to Christ was your aim and this was a "side effect." God does not save all rewards for heaven. With my belief, I don't have a problem with your leader building you up...or using you as an example. I can see teaching and learning and growing in Christ coming from the example you set. Just as I wouldn't have a problem with him sharing what went wrong (with your permission)...again it is good for instruction.


Unless you've experienced for yourself the zealot's passion (and I don't think you have - you sound far too reasonable and balanced to be made subject to it) it's difficult to grasp its depth and extent. I can't convey the rapturous adandonment and utter selflessness I experienced for the first six months after my conversion. Both my mother and sister thought I'd lost my mind - my sister especially, considering the incident at the vocational college, which occured in the first week after my conversion. In many ways they were glad for the change because I'd reached a point where my isolation, my reclusiveness, and the things I said and did in the rare moments when I left my bedroom, had begun to frighten both of them. I had been in the process of losing my mind. My conversion halted that, and sent me into a six month long mania instead. Once the mania had passed I plunged into a month long depression accompanied by a near-suicidal sense of abandnment. That was brought to an end by my baptism in the Spirit.

I won't go into details here but trust me, prior to my conversion I was well on my way to becoming a Very Bad Man and on numerous occasions came within a heart-beat of doing things that would have ruined my life forever. Again, my conversion put an end to that possibility (in the form it then had) and the difference, the transformation was immediately apparent.

My sister wouldn't enter my room at all unaccompanied, and my mother only when the lights were on and she was sure I was out. My christian friends, whose testimony and lives had such a profound influence on me, admitted afterward that they had been afraid to spend time alone with me or leave me alone with those they cared about. The only one who had felt relatively at ease in my presence was my friend Steve, who 'led me to Christ'. He'd be horrified to learn what it was he actually led me to lol but that's another story entirely. And the only reason he felt able to deal with me as he had (he later admitted) was that he'd felt surrounded and protected by prayer at every turn our relationship had taken.

Even now, once you understand how my mind works and what it is that motivates me, I can hardly be called 'nice'. Back then, I was a monster without any kind of disguise and all those who spent any time in my company soon realised it.

As a consequence of all these things, and the seven months that elapsed between my conversion and my baptism in the Spirit, I came to believe, absolutely and fundamentally that all that counts with God is perfect purity of purpose untainted by any aspect of self. And that conviction remains with me to this day. Which is the source of the antipathy toward personal success you detected in the article.

It is an antipathy and a conviction I stand by. There is no room within the Christian revelation for any kind of purely personal ambition, personal agenda, of any kind. You cannot serve two Masters. Either you will love Mammon and hate Christ; or you will love Christ and hate Mammon. You cannot vacilate between the two and expect to be accepted of God (in the sense of having your works blessed and prospered).

I think there are good avenues for zealotry but none of them involve other people. Being a zealot about spending time with God every day, being a zealot about being the best husband in Christ, being a zealot about prayer, etc. Those things are zealotry turned inward. Not for the world to see and hear, only for God.


This is exactly what I came to believe. Unfortunately, the true zealot's fire can't be contained within the inner world of the zealot himself. It has a natural tendency to spread to the world of others because Christianity, at its heart, is a proselytizing and evangelical religion. Unlike Buddhism (for example) its chief orientation, its existential nature, is oriented to action and not contemplation (which is why Christian ascetics and mystics have such a tone of scandal about them - their inactivity scandalised their contemporaries). My inner zealot demanded that my outer zealot be as zealous as possible that others come to admit the truth that I had learned, in the hardest possible way, was true.

So that is what I mean when I say I "don't care"....I care in that I want people to know the joy and love I have with Christ in their lives, but I am not going to worry myself sick over it because I remember how HE wooed me. And I am not any more special than anyone else...so I believe He will do the same to others.


Seeing you write about your faith I've noticed a decided 'inward' bent, a very intense focus on your response as a unique person to the presence of God, that convinces me you are well on your way toward the Christian mystics, those great individualists of faith. You might want to look at Julian of Norwich (who was a woman).

What you had pointed to in the beginning was an assumption I had made that I wasn't aware of, which was exemplified in the article I wrote. Namely, that zealotry consists in purity of purpose (to which I will add, dedication to that purpose) and in nothing else. Whatever a zealot may do, now matter how he may speak of it, results from his conviction that his purpose is pure. I believe that to be true. Even if that's not a fact of the life of the world I share with everyone else it's a fact of my life, and I hold to it now just as I did at the beginning. And that, of course, makes me a zealot. Still. And that's a realization of yet one more of the ways in which I resemble, while differing from, my former Christian self.

Realizing what you've said has exerted real influence and effected actual change in someone else's life is worth a couple of days delay, don't you think?
on Jul 19, 2006
I understand better now, after your explanation, your definition of a zealot.

The simple truth is that I'm still subject to the zealot's conviction that the only true purpose is a pure purpose. And by purity I mean a purpose untainted by anything extraneous to itself and particularly anything that could be considered 'selfish'.


This makes sense. I can read it and say, yes, I understand it. You see I DID go through a period of time, early in my walk, when I threw out of my life any and all things not directly related to glorifying Christ. Books, art work, writing, etc.

While I didn't stand on street corners and preach, you can bet anyone I met within five minutes was hearing about Christ. It was a well of such truth and such power I couldn't contain it in me anymore than hold water in my hands.

If someone doubted or outright rejected Christ, I took it as a personal assault upon His holiness and argued the person to the point they capitulated and agreed (which was very rare) or got fed up with it and told me to shut up. (Much more common, heh)

So while I can not identify personally with your public exuberance, I have tasted a little bit of that zealot cake.

Since you shared your road I hope you won't mind if I share some of mine.

I believe God wants some of those who first come to Him to be full of FIRE. When I decided to become a Christian for real my life changed. I can honestly say God did change most of it. I didn't labor with every single little detail (like taking curse words from my mouth).

But there were some really big issues I did labor over. I needed the fire, the zealotry of wanting, NEEDING to take everything out of my life not of Christ...to rid my life of those things that kept me from being a living witness and came between us.

That is why I believe God gives us that fire of a zealot to turn inward on our own lives. And I believe as long as I felt that all consuming heat and drive there was still major work to be done....something I needed to excise from my life that could only be accomplished under the heat of zealotry.

As a consequence of all these things, and the seven months that elapsed between my conversion and my baptism in the Spirit, I came to believe, absolutely and fundamentally that all that counts with God is perfect purity of purpose untainted by any aspect of self.


I wonder, what made you believe this? Was it the doctrine of the church or something you decided? We were in different denominations but I also believed this for a time.

The reason it changed for me was fairly evident the more I studied the Bible. With the exception of Elijah (and Christ) every other person God called "righteous" was human and full of human failings, desires, ambitions, etc. And he loved them anyway. So I looked at my motivation...was it to be the BEST Christian ever (which was all self serving and prideful), or was it to be loved by God as a child?

I studied David a lot because I identified most with him. Being a woman that probably doesn't sound quite "Right" but that's just how it worked out.

David had seasons of zealotry in the beginning....when he fought the giant for example.....and then it seems the fires of zealotry bank for a time, receding if you will to his inner heart chambers....only to be drawn out again when needed to expunge or burn something from his life or kingdom that came between he and God and was to big to just do his own.

When I read about the others God loved, I saw these were men and women operating in the real world. God never told them ambition was wrong. And if having ambition and "stuff" was wrong, then why did God often bless his people with exactly those things?

I came to the conclusion that my humanity and all it entails is from God. That gave me freedom because until that point in my walk I believed everything I wanted that did not have to do with Christ was evil. I believed my abrasive/outspoken personality was wrong and I lamented not having the quiet personality of some of the women in the church. Now why would I think that? God certainly didn't lay that yoke upon me. Most of the examples in scripture are of strong vibrant passionate people. AND GOD LOVED THEM, called them His own.

You know that common saying, "What would Jesus do?" Kids wear it on bracelets, people have bumper stickers with it, etc

At first glance this little four word sentence relays the selfless message doesn't it? It may relay it in the way the world sees God, but I don't think its the way God would have us be.

Jesus wouldn't run a corporation, He wouldn't marry, HE wouldn't do those things because He did not come to do those things. But He did not forbid those things to those who follow Him.

God gave each of us a unique personality, and emotions. There is no sin or selfishness in living our lives with those things. And if God gave me a healthy dose of ambition then using it is not a sin. Not using it, is.

God showed me "selflessness" as defined by the world is not His definition. Loving God is not about stuffing our humanity in a bottle and becoming zombies. If He wanted that, He would CREATE it.

For me it all boiled down to this. Give God the premiere place in my life. Consult Him about everyday choices, include Him in celebrations, ask for His guidance, etc. Treat Him like a beloved Father. He's told me in scripture how He wants me to treat my neighbors, obey it, but NOT blindly.

I don't run to fill every need I see, why? Because doing the "right" thing at the wrong time is wrong. And it is presumptuous.

Seeing you write about your faith I've noticed a decided 'inward' bent, a very intense focus on your response as a unique person to the presence of God, that convinces me you are well on your way toward the Christian mystics, those great individualists of faith.


HAHAHA. Thanks Simon. I can tell you I was all about the church, the American church for years. But God led me into the desert for three long dark years and took that body of believers from me.

Now I question things much more. I ask myself. "Is God saying this plainly?" (because despite what some believe He speaks clear and not in code.) But I am still working on this so can't clearly articulate it here. I can summarize it by saying I am questioning everything American, everything old, everything new, and trusting God to clean from my mind and spirit all the man made extras, so our relationship can be honed razor sharp.

So that is my very looooong response to your very thoughtful one. I don't mind you took a few days to think about things....thank you for the response.

And I will leave you with a question. hehe

What if the zealotry you harbor in your spirit is from God...and is commanded not to recede until it has done His work and burned away what it is that may need burned away? (Kinda the gift that keeps on giving. heh)

What if you walked away before the job was finished and now must live with the fire of the gift burning you daily and consuming all things that are not of Him?

I can not say those things with any certainty other than that in my own life...which means to say for your life, none at all.

But it does make me wonder.
on Jul 20, 2006
To: Tova7

What if you walked away before the job was finished and now must live with the fire of the gift burning you daily and consuming all things that are not of Him?


For one thing, I no longer believe that there is anything that is not of IT (Him, in your usage). And all fires are useful; for warming hands, baking bread, and burning your enemies houses down - if need be.

I'm reasonably certain that you're not one of those 'christians' (KFC and The Penultimate spring to mind) who believe that they're gong to be made perfect in this life (if they aren't already so, of course) - therefore I can't conclude you meant the line about 'walking away before the job was finished' seriously. Is it finished in your case? No. In mine? No. So like it or not, if we're aware of such things then we're all going to be scorched. It's how we choose to respond to the fire that counts.

As I've said, I'm still a zealot. But my God needs no witnesses and seeks no converts. If you're ever drawn to look, then you're already a believer. That being so I've time and thought enough to spare to devote my zealotry to the kinds of things you yourself listed above - a zealotry visible only to myself and the Angel.
on Jul 20, 2006
And all fires are useful; for warming hands, baking bread, and burning your enemies houses down - if need be.


HAHAHAHAHA. This is funny...true though.

who believe that they're gong to be made perfect in this life


No I don't believe that...(since I already am!) buwhahahahahahha

'walking away before the job was finished' seriously. Is it finished in your case? No. In mine?


No I didn't mean finished as in Christ on the cross uttering "It is finished." I meant finished as in I'm done washing the dishes. After that clean up, there is a slight respite before another chore needs to be tackled. It will never be finished this side of the coin imo.

It's how we choose to respond to the fire that counts.


I agree totally. I think its about using the fire for refinement and not letting the fire control me.

I enjoyed this very much Simon. Thanks!
on Aug 04, 2006
"If your ever drawn to look then your already a believer..."

That very thing is what I struggle with all the time. The distinction of believing, and wanting it to be real (or wanting to believe).

I have always "been drawn to look, and search etc." Even as I look and search I can say that I have found NO God.

I have thought about what "a god" would be, or would be like. I have a concept of God. But the truth is, I know its only a thought. A thought can't be touched, or felt, or anything but "affected" by thought itself.

Anyhow, good luck with your belief. Life is good with our without it.

Fox