"If it's provable we can kill it."
How would you ease their pain?
Published on November 20, 2007 By EmperorofIceCream In Religion
I'm tired of you, you so-called 'religious'. You prate your pious nothings, endlessly quoting scripture you don't comprehend and expounding dogmas you have no understanding of. As I've said many times, your gods are delusions and your faith no more than over-anxious self-deceit.

So now I'm come to challenge you with a question. Christians may answer it. Muslims may answer it. Jews may answer it. Those who adhere to sects which are subsidiary branches of those three great streams of faith may answer it. Agnostics and unbelievers may answer it also, if they can. But primarily this question is directed toward Christians, Muslims and Jews - because those are the three peoples of the Book.

What real comfort has your faith to offer those who suffer innocently?

Let me tell you a story about my friend Susan, who died long before I ever left England and whom I loved dearly. Susan was a highly intelligent, thoughtful, able young woman. She had a keen mind and a quick understanding. At age 17 she was diagnosed with malignant tumours of the brain, that would certainly have killed her if not treated very aggressively. She was told that the surgery she was to undergo would save her life - which it did. She was not told that it would leave her deaf as a stone. She was not told that it would leave her with most of her face paralyzed and frozen into a drooling leer.

She died fifteen years later, her life (in one sense) a blighted wasteland of opportunites denied her and possibilities unrealized, having suffered continual pain throughout what remained of her time here.

There's endless sadness in the world, endless pain and misey, cruelty and suffering. Except for the fortunate few (among whom I count myself when compared to, say, a Darfurian, or a street-kid in Bogota, or some poor dumb brute tormented so that the eyes of women won't be irritated by their cosmetics), the unfortunate majority suffer endlessly in countless ways. How would you comfort them?

The Jesus of the New Testament didn't preach to the sick, he healed them. He didn't preach to the sinner, or tell the sinful man that his misery was his own fault and entirely to be expected - even when that was true. He forgave the sin. He didn't tell the harlot that her stoning was justified, or God's wrath; he defended her, rebuked those who would have killed her, and changed her life through the example of a love that actually did something other than talk.

Which is why I still like and respect the man, even if I no longer believe in the Divinity.

I left the Church because I grew weary of sermons that were no more than condemnation "uttered in love". I left because I was weary of people only too willing to follow the latest 'teaching' but not at all willing to do what their faith required of them - while knowing and saying all the right things and behaving exactly as if they were devout followers of their 'Lord'. Perfect replicas, with less life and faith in them than a rock or a tree.

So I don't want to hear what the Bible says. I already know what the Bible says, in infinitely greater depth and infinitely greater understanding than any of you will ever attain to. Not because I'm smarter than you or more holy than you or wiser than you. But because I read Scripture with my eyes open and you read it with your eyes shut. Because I read it wanting to comprehend what it says to me, while you read it the other way around - telling it what it says in order to confirm your base prejudice and low opinions as a faith worthy of the name. Whited sepulchres, all of you, full of filth you call praise and abominations you call worship.

I want to know what resources there are in your faith, your beliefs, with which you would comfort my friend Susan; or the man who loses everything through no fault of his own; or that man I knew at work last year, whose only daughter died in a car crash, just before Christmas, while driving the car he had given her as a gift for her sixteenth birthday. It sounds like a bad joke. But it happened.

By all means, use Scripture to illuminate your argument. But don't substitute Scripture in place of an argument. I don't expect any of the so-called 'teachers' I've encountered in JU to be remotely capable of satisfying these requirements and answering my question. But if you can I'll acknowledge and respect it. But I'm not such a fool as to think that, when I have conclusively demonstrated that all of you know nothing, understand nothing, and can do nothing, I'll receive similar courtesy from you.

C'est la vie, c'est la guerre.

I shall post my thoughts on this matter tomorrow (probably) as a response here. Why don't you do likewise?

Comments (Page 3)
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on Nov 23, 2007
To me there are two kinds of suffering. Suffering at the hand of Man, and suffering that is just part of being alive.

Suffering at the hand of man is the result of decisions we make that bring illness, injury and emotional pain to ourselves and others. Most of us don't set out to hurt othes, but we've all done things that have caused injury and death. We also make decisions in our lives that bring emotional pain to others. They don't even have to be crimes, sins, or anything else "bad". In fact, the "right" decision can cause as much suffering as the "wrong" one.

Suffering that is just part of being alive is from illnesses, injury and emotional pain that simply happens. No matter what we do, or how much we do to prevent it, sometimes we are just going to get sick, hurt, or experience emotional trauma to the point that we suffer.

To me, it isn't the fact that we suffer that is important, it is how we handle our own suffering, how we are with others who are suffering and how we respond when our own decisions bring suffering on others.

In the end, it won't be the fact that we suffered that will make the difference, it will be what we did to alleviate the suffering of others.

If there was no suffering, there would be no opportunity to help. Sadly though, some people have caused so much suffering, there isn't any way to alleviate it all... but that doesn't mean we shouldn't be trying.
on Nov 23, 2007
Emp,

I believe very firmly that God designed us to minister on His behalf. As a matter of fact, the New Testament says as much. I believe that many times when innocents suffer it is because of failure on behalf of the chirch.

That is not to say that ALL of those times can be chalked up to failure on behalf of the church, but most occasions I can think of stem directly from that. As to those that do not, well, truthfully, I can't give you a good explanation.
on Nov 23, 2007
Aeryk reads hate into everything and everyone, Para, even other Christians, (who couldn't POSSIBLY be as good of a Christian as HE is.) They're all bad, you see, deluded, misguided, heretics, demons and apostates because they aren't AERYK.


I can attest to that. I've been condemned as a heretic by Aeryck.

S'ok, he's neither the first, nor the best, individual to call me a heretic.
on Nov 23, 2007
To me there are two kinds of suffering. Suffering at the hand of Man, and suffering that is just part of being alive. Suffering at the hand of man is the result of decisions we make that bring illness, injury and emotional pain to ourselves and others. Most of us don't set out to hurt othes, but we've all done things that have caused injury and death. We also make decisions in our lives that bring emotional pain to others. They don't even have to be crimes, sins, or anything else "bad". In fact, the "right" decision can cause as much suffering as the "wrong" one.
(Emphasis in bold added by myself).

And therein lies the difficulty. Suffering is not the consequence of sin. Nor is it the consequence of virtue. It's one consequence of being alive. It would all be infinitely simpler if there was any real consistency in suffering. But there isn't - except for the very general observation that, in most cases, it's those we account good who suffer and those we account wicked who prosper. And when asked why that should be so it isn't enough to return a shrug of the shoulders and a puzzled look. "God moves in mysterious ways" is not an answer. It's an excuse.

If there was no suffering, there would be no opportunity to help.


Perhaps so. And if there were no opportunities to help there would be no suffering?

I don't know if the answer I found, that the function of suffering innocence is to participate in the redemption of the entire creation, is right in some universal and absolute sense. Probably not, since my grasp on the nature of the universe and the meaning of its existence is neither universal nor absolute. I think it will be many more years yet before I can claim to have reached an understanding of this, and many other issues, which might be called substantial rather than provisional.

on Nov 24, 2007
(think of the story of the sword.)


I think of little else, all the time.
on Nov 25, 2007
I have to think there's some balance there, emp. It is my firm conviction that God IS a just God, and that He has a special place for those who suffer in this life. In fact, yes, I'm sure of it. I think that's the whole point of the Beatitudes. I don't understand all of it, but I believe God offers hope to ALL, and has special compassion towards these people.

Or (yes, I know, I'm going to Hell for quoting Richard Marx) to quote the lyrics from the one good song from an otherwise banal artist:

"Lord, I know I'm bound for heaven
'Cuz I've done my time in Hell"
Richard Marx, Children of the Night
on Nov 25, 2007


Talmud and Mishnah I'm familiar with, but Chabalah not at all. I googled the word and the results indicate it has something to do with 'injury' or 'destruction'. So I find myself a little perplexed.


It may have been because of my transliteration of the Hebrew word. Try looking up Kabbalah instead. Basically this is the Jewish Mysticism.

on Nov 25, 2007
This is the hardest question to answer. You're right that the easy thing is to say "The Lord works in mysterious ways". I know that every day there are people who suffer horribly. I also know that every day there are miracles too. The fact that your friend survived her malignant brain tumor was a miracle. I believe that when someone suffers it means that a blessing will come to them or through them. We don't see the big picture but God does. This reminds me of the story of Joseph when his brothers sold him into slavery.

You intended to harm me, but God intended it for good to accomplish what is now being done, the saving of many lives. Genesis 50:20

I don't believe that God is up in heaven with lightening bolts waiting and watching for our failures. I believe God is our biggest cheerleader. God wants the very best for us. Our humaness wants to point fingers and blame someone for everything that goes wrong.

And his disciples asked Him, saying, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he should be born blind?” Jesus answered, “It was neither that this man sinned, nor his parents; but it was in order that the works of God might be displayed in him.”
—John 9:2-3, NIV


These thoughts comfort me but I don't know that they would have comforted your friend. It is a matter of faith and you either believe there is a purpose to your suffering or not. If it were my friend, I would remind her that she is a spiritual being and this physical body we are in is just temporary. Her true self is her soul and that remains beautiful and unchanged. That is who she REALLY is. I would also try to help her by remaining her friend and helping her physically in any way I could. I would imagine that one of the harder parts of going through such a dramatic change would be that many friends (really aquaintances) would disappear because they don't want to deal with it.

I don't know that these answers would help anyone who didn't share the underlying beliefs though.

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